Polish Marks. Who is the maker?

[kustakv]

Qrt.S helped me with the Polish cups made by Israel A. Goldman. This cup is also Polish, but could you help me to identify the maker? Thanks.

[Zolotnik]

Hi kustakv -

this really look like an authentic mark of Poland under Russian rule around 1850-1870. Trademark of the maker (star), eagle for the assay office Warsaw, silver content 84 zolotniki = 875/1000 and the make´s name (unfortunately unknown to me - I never have seen this S.F.!)

I enclose a similar punch from R. Hersz Szyldberg from the same time.



Regards
Zolotnik

[kustakv]

Thank you, Zolotnik!

What surprises me here is that in this cup and in the other two by by Goldman (see my previous post) the marks are struck so deeply that they are clearly seen on the other side of the cup's bottom, inside the cup. I've never seen anything like this.

[Qrt.S]

If it was possible the silver smiths in Russian were very keen on removing the impression marks when they returned from the assay office back to their workshop. Therefore a not removed impression mark could indicate a fake. In addition, In your case the completely unknown maker's mark could indicate the same. This is a difficult and should I say a dubious case. However, in Warsaw almost anything could happen.

[Zolotnik]

Hi -
Warsaw silver marks are always very distinct - not only the assayers but also the silversmiths/makers liked "impressive" punches. See attached photos -all authentic.






etc.,etc.,etc.

Regards
Zolotnik

[kustakv]

I am really grateful for all the information I got here. Very educating. As for authenticity, I tend to believe that these three cups are authentic, but I am not completely objective. Thanks again.
Best,
kustakv

[Qrt.S]

I seems to that I must specify my statement. The "impressive mark" is the mark that sometimes can be seen on the opposite side of the surface where an assayer's or a maker's mark is punched as a body work damage. Especially if the punch is hit very hard. This opposite side "dent" was usually removed by the maker, especially by the Russian ones. It was not always possible due to the objects shape but when it was, it was "flattened". A clearly visible impression mark is a red flag!!!

[kustakv]

Thanks again. That's a very good thing to know. If this is a forgery, is the whole item fake or just marks? What do you think? My thinking is:
these cups are hand engraved. Would it make any sense to go into trouble of producing them and applying the right set of marks to sell them for a very insignificant sum? This maybe a naive question, but I am a novice in Russian silver or any silver for that matter.

Best,
kustakv

[Zolotnik]

Hi kustakv -

our biggest request is to discuss authentic Russian silver and the silver of the sourrounding countries. Our main objective are not the numerous fakes and how to distinguish them from each other or authentic stuff! The standard formula here: I've never understood the urge to "learn" about fakes. It's a waste of time. Spend that energy learning about the real thing and you'll know the fakes when you see them because they won't look like the real thing. No matter how much you "learn" about fakes, you'll never know everything about them so it's literally an all-consuming time-suck that has no value since every day new fakes hit the market.

But maybe you've heard of low-wage countries, industrial production, corrupt customs offices, unscrupulous dealers / auction houses and stupid buyers.....

Regards
Zolotnik

[kustakv]

Hi Zolotnik,

Maybe in an ideal world you first learn about authentic Russian silver and then you will see what is fake and what is not. But learning is a slow process and [I quote what you wrote in another post] "sometimes it is very expensive to make your own experience. Better to listen and think before you buy - not after. ... Nobody wants to heap up a fake collection and lose a lot of money."

So, IMHO, discussing fakes is very important in the world flooded with fakes. And, in fact, a lot of posts here start with a request to identify an item and end up establishing that it is either dubious or fake.

It is very useful for a beginner like myself to read these discussions and see examples of fakes. In a recent post (about a tea pot) you post a photograph of a salt allegedly by Klingert and write that it has the wrong colors and pattern. I can see that the quality is poor and the mark is sloppy, so it is most likely not a Klingert. But it would be very useful for me and other less experienced collectors to know what is wrong with the colors and pattern.

Anyway, I really learn a lot from this forum. Thanks.

Best,
kustakv

[Qrt.S]

@kustakv

In a way I understand your point of view but there is also an another angle. The simple reason why neither Zolotnik nor me and some others are not so keen on explaining why a fake is a fake is that also fakers read these sites. Nobody wants to teach fakers to know how distinguish between a fake and an authentic object. I think you know why, don't you? Therefore Zolotik's advise to learn how an authentic object and its marks should look like is a good one.

The world is full of different faked objects and marks but there is only one genuine mark. Learn how it looks like! These sites are not either the initial learning point, it is somewhere else. Here you will find additional information like who made it, when and where, but not information why a fake is fake...at least not from me!

Moreover, unfortunately sometimes fakes are shown and it is not a happy feeling to tell that to the questioner, believe me, he will be very unhappy sometimes furious because he has spent his hard earned money on a worthless object.

I hope you can live with this dear kustakv!

Qrt.S

[Zolotnik]

Hi kustakv -

I believe that many people start from the wrong end. They buy something they have no clue of and than start to do their homework after the purchase. If they are told that they not only bought a fake but a very primitive made fake, they are very disappointed and upset - not because they behaved like fools but because nobody educated them how fakes could be detected. Always the others are responsible....
If you know what you are doing, you see a fake at once - if you are not convienced - go away.. If you do not know what you are doing, you never will be able to distinguish right from wrong - even after countless "lessons" from others. So you either begin learning step by step, starting slow and modest or be the greedy fool who buys Fabergé in wellknown auctions, starting at 1 (one) US $....
It is just a matter of demand and supply - intelligence and knowledge is seemingly not neccesary. The proof you can read every day in the forum.

Regards
Zolotnik

[kustakv]

OK, Qrt.S and Zolotnik, thanks. Although, in my opinion, production of fakes in Russian silver is an interesting subject by itself, I understand now that it lies outside this forum's discussion field. I certainly can live with it, asking questions about marks without going into the issue of their authenticity. And hopefully contributing something too.

One question I would like to ask now is whether you guys have ever come across Moscow kokoshnik marks facing right struck over the head by a deep X. I have three items (all enameled) with such marks: two cloisonné sugar tongs by the same maker whom I cannot identify either, 88 purity, and a champlevé tea strainer, allegedly by Khlebnikov, 84 purity.

Again, I am not asking if they are fake or not but I would love to know the meaning of these X strikes and also to identify the maker's marks on the tongs. (Of course it may happen that they are all fake after all. I would not exclude this possibility.)

I will create a new post when I make photographs.

Best,
kustakv

[silverfan]

The X was struck on items made for export.
Regards silverfan

[Zolotnik]

Hi kustakv -

if you are so fascinated by Russian fakes - why not start a fake collection? It would be very easy, no knowledge is needed and there are thousands available. Only problem: you can get an authentic piece by mistake......To prevent that you have to found a Fake Forum too....

If you have new questions please start a new thread. Maybe it would be very helping to read the forum guidelines before!Questions without photos get no answers - exept someone is unusually resistant to advice....

Import mark (the town mark shows in which town it was imported - in the shown case Riga, at that time part of Russia)



Export mark I



Export mark II



Regards

Zolotnik

[kustakv]

Thank you Silverfan and Zolotnik.

Best
kustakv

[Dad]

Hi.

This mark (slanting cross) is similar to a stamp on a post mark. It means that tax (or part of it) is returned to the producer of a product at its export abroad for sale (export). This mark was used since 1908. Not often.

Special Mark for export there was "head-kokoshnik" in an oval cartouche. Since 1908, too.




Best Regards.

[Zolotnik]

Hi Dad -

here some real exportmarks from sugar tongs made by Pavlov N. P. in Moscow - I do not know into which country they were delivered.







Regards
Zolotnik

[Dad]

Yes, Zolotnik, it's correct example.

[kustakv]

Thank you, Dad. On my tongs I have both X and kokoshnik in the oval cartouche, like on Zolotnik's tongs. I am still trying to photograph the maker's mark to post in a new thread but so far unsuccessfully – it is inside the top of the tongs and I can't make a sharp picture. Zolotnik, any advice? Your photo is perfect and it is in the same place.

Best,
kustakv