Russian object

[huszas76]

Hello everyone!
A made some pictures about a russian item. I'm not home at this area.
I would like to know, what are you thinking about it. This is fake, dobious, or an authentic old russian one?

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If it's a good one, i'm curious, who is the maker and the assay master!
Any help would be good, thank you very much!
Best Regards!
Christian

[Zolotnik]

Hi -

the shown marks are fake phantasymarks i.e. they are not correct and should belong to:
Assayer St. Petersburg: Pavel Kostytchev 1873-1876
Silversmith: Sohlman, Gustav Alexander 1830-1883, a Finn

Typical "upraded" fake: original silver from probably somewhere in Europe (typical spoute!), new (wrong) marks and engraving à la Russe.....

Regards
Zolotnik

[Dad]

Hi, All.

I am not such radical as the Zolotnik. ))
It is an original teapot and as wrote the Zolotnik:
"Assayer St. Petersburg: Pavel Kostytchev , Silversmith: Sohlman, Gustav Alexander."
Punches are very right. This my opinion.
In addition: Pavel Andreevych Kostychev very interesting person. The outstanding scientific agronomist. B 1894 - the minister of agriculture in the government of Russia.

Best Reg..

[Qrt.S]

Hmmmmmm....there are some disturbing matters here. The marks are not phantasy marks they look very real but.... The maker's mark and the assaying mark on the lid are on the rim. That is uncommon for a Russian made object. The marks should be inside the lid and not on the outside of the lid's rim. In addition, I'd like to know are there more marks and if so, where? There should be marks on the spout and on the handle too. The simple reason is that they are detachable parts and according to the rules they should carry marks. Kindly investigate and let us know. If you don't find more marks, you have a suspicious object in you possession.

[Zolotnik]

Hi -
Three very clear answers:
1) Fake
2) No Fake
3) No Fake but dubious
Maybe we start with comparing the wellknown, official marks:

Assayer´s mark. 2 are known - all with dot in the middle - no star!

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Maker´s mark: 3 are known, all look different in detail!

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Pure wrong phantasy marks on the absolute unusual/wrong locations with a big ding simulating a faceless control mark.

Now decide for yourself....

Regards
Zolotnik

[Zolotnik]

Hi -

Hypothesis:

I take an teapot from the Sovietera, make some cosmetic changes, a little engraving here and there and overstruck the old marks with a big, square mark to cover it.
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Now I have an old Russian tea pot...

Regards
Zolotnik

[Qrt.S]

Another matter caught my mind. The assaying mark on lid's rim was launched in 1882 but Kostytshev assayed only 1873-1876 in St Petersburg. Nothing more to add to what is already stated.....sorry!

[Dad]

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Zolotnik, sorry, but it seems to me : I among preschool children )) Look at this.

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It's usual S-Petersburg assay office punches. Between П and К is not STAR. It's S-Petersburg coat of arms.

[Dad]

Another matter caught my mind. The assaying mark on lid's rim was launched in 1882 but Kostytshev assayed only 1873-1876 in St Petersburg. Nothing more to add to what is already stated.....sorry!

Qrt.S. This pic. for You.

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[Zolotnik]

Hi Dad -
I do not want to be the smart aleck, but all your shown ПК marks are fake marks. Red arrow = no anchor, green arrow = anchor. Do you think in ernest that the assay office could not afford correct punches? Without anchor it is easier for the fakers.....

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I represent in this forum just my personal opinion, which builds on over 25 years with the collection of Russian and Baltic silver. No one is required to join my reviews - but sometimes it is very expensive to make your own experience. Better to listen and think before you buy - not after.
Moreover, there should be a certain sense of responsibility towards those seeking advice from the participating members! Nobody wants to heap up a fake collection and lose a lot of money.

Regards
Zolotnik

[Qrt.S]

Yes Dad, I know that. BUT! This no-notches mark belongs to the same category as this mark below where the town mark and fineness mark have changed place. Fake or not I don't know because I have not been able to have those marks' authenticity verified from any source. I you can verify it referring to a reliable source, I'm more than grateful.
Until then I consider them as dubious marks!
Thank you in advance

[huszas76]

Hello Everyone!
Thank you all for your replies! I think, that all your answers were really helpful!
Best regards!
Krisztián

[Hephaistos]

A russsian salt celler, old russian style, origin St Petersburg, trompe-de-oeil depicting a cut logged butter barrell (?), gilt inside, typical feet, and feet decorations, engraved with letters in each log square.

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Courtesy Bukowski Auctions

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Courtesy Bukowski Auctions

The stamps identifies St Petersburg, the wellknown, but low priced, silversmith JAL (in latin letters) and the assaymaster Ivan Yevstigneev. All this is irrelevant to the coffee-pot, it's stamps and fake or not.

But, Dad showed a lot of samples of the St P assay stamps, of which the No 4 in the upper row was Ivan Yestigneev, with a starlike city mark, similar to those shown of assaymaster Pavel Kostychev. If the star qualifies for a fake, in this case, how the to explain why faking stamps of a typical high quality russian salt cellar and to add engraving which normally lower the market price? Is the salt cellar a remake? I doubt that. And, if so, from what?

Maybe there is something more to learn on this triggering subject. Crossed anchors and sceptre, simplisticly reduced to a star?

[Zolotnik]

Hi Hephaistos -

first I want to bring into remembrance the wellknown motto: "I've never understood the urge to "learn" about fakes. It's a waste of time. Spend that energy learning about the real thing and you'll know the fakes when you see them because they won't look like the real thing. No matter how much you "learn" about fakes, you'll never know everything about them so it's literally an all-consuming time-suck that has no value since every day new fakes hit the market" before we start a hopefuly interesting, hatefree discussion. I can only share my experiences and observations - everybody must draw conclusions for themselves.
The shown salt celler I would not call a trompe-de-oeil object, for that it is too crude and simple made. It is more a trompe-de-oeil for people who do not know what the word means. I show some real trompe-de-oeil at the end. Next I do not like the Gothic script - very often seen on fakes. By the way - added engraving does not lower the market price of Russian silver - it just often tells an interesting story (coat of arms, family crests, special events, donation textes, monograms in different letter styles etc.).expanding the value or explaining the object´s history. The marks I have already criticized - maybe I show some examples to better undestand what I want to say:
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The marks in original size

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For the punchmakers it was no problem to make clear and crisp marks with all necessary details!

Some other marks to show that this was standard - no simplifications were "invented" or used, at least not on the several hundred objects I have around me....

Gripend of a sugar tong 9th Artel


Even the town mark of Riga with all details
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Town mark St. Petersburg (not a cross!) plus year 1799
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Town mark St. Petersburg (again no cross)

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Regards

Zolotnik

[Zolotnik]

Hi all -
an other often seen example:

Enamel cloisonné salt celler, scanty enamelled in the wrong colours and pattern -

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wrong marks GK for Gustav Klingert, as expected - the town mark Moscow also in a new form -

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Sold all over Europe and USA every week in nearly every auction house - they all are identic - what a miracle. Someone must have detected an old warehouse of Klingert....

Regards
Zolotnik

[Nickleby]

Though delayed by three short years, I shall venture to clarify the strange discussion
about fake or non fake regarding Krisztians

Code: Select all

russian object

This sugar and cream set is marked St.Petersburg 1877
maker: Gustav Alexander Sohlmann (GAS)
assay master: Ivan Vonifatiyevich Yevstigneyev.

It was offered as a wedding present to a visiting german friend by an eminent esthonian family
on Whitsuntide 1878 (Pfingsten 1878) and ran down in the family ever since.

There cannot be the slightest doubt on it's being genuine.
And it is clearly the same pattern and workmanship as Krisztians
coffee or teapot from 1874, including the positioning of all the marks.

Only the assay master changed.

Cheers to all.
Nickleby


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[Goldstein]

Hi -
Some comments, independent of traditional stories, conjecture or wishful thinking:
I can presuppose in a forum like this the Russian stamp practice as to be known and understood - also the existence of fakes and their various methods of fraud. Just to remember: additional parts of an object (handles, spouts etc.) had to be extra marked - for good reasons! If this marks are missing - red flag!
The heat shields are when contemporary usually made of ivory, not plastic. If plastic - red flag!
If the punches are unprecise, sloppy and crude -red flag!
If the internet auctions are full of this special pattern again and again or you find the same model in a different pattern - all with the same marks - red flag!
Mind you, all objects are each in immaculate condition! After about 142 years....

Here the shown marks under critical reflection:
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Goldstein

[Nickleby]

So you suppose the noble family who gave this wedding-present in 1878 bought an 1878 fake in a Petersburg backyard? Very likely, indeed.
It has been taken back to Germany in 1878 and never changed house since, and was probably rarely used, if ever. At least for the last 70 years it was stored away in a cubboard. Easy to excuse the mint condition. There is no wishful thinking involved. It may be rare to find pieces who with so traceable a history , but you should consider to accept the facts and see whether they fit in with your rather academical theories.
regards

[Goldstein]

My grandmother always said: "You can lead a horse to the water but you can not make it drink!"
Enjoy what you have - it is special!

Goldstein

[Goldstein]

Hi -
a quick check of the auction scene revealed the newest production - three (3) mint, identic objects found:

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Poor is he who thinks evil!

Goldstein