two russian silver spoons

[ag93]

Hi, wondered if anyone can tell me anymore about this pair of spoons? They both have the same hallmark and found them in a box of silver plate! If anybody could identify the maker and assayer that would be great.

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have posted a link to picture as I don't know how to attach one.

[ag93]

Still can't upload image but hope this is okay.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/79921151@N ... otostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/79921151@N ... otostream/

[Ubaranda]

Hello!
Your spoons were made in Sankt-Peterburg by silversmith Bragin Andrey Stepanovich (mark "АБ" - Брагин Андрей Степанович). He worked since 1852 and until the end of 19 century. "А.М" is the mark of assay maker Mitin Alexander Nikolaevich (Митин Александр Николаевич). He worked in 1842-1877.
Best regards.
Alex.

[Qrt.S]

A minor addition: When you see the assayer's initials AM in St Petersburg and the time span is between 1850-1867 the assayer can as well be Aleksandr Yakovlevitch Moor/Mor 1831, 1850-1867 (Александр Яаколевич Мор). It does not change anything but is good to know.

[Dad]

Hi, All.

One more addition. I never saw the mark of assaymaster A.M.Mitin. There can be somebody will show?

[Ubaranda]

Sorry, Ort.S, but in the catalog of Russian hallmarks of Postnikova-Loseva is said that Alexander Jakovlevich Mor worked in 1831-1854 years. I'm afraid that your information is wrong :-(.



Best regards. Alex.

[Ubaranda]

Special for Dad! :-)

[Qrt.S]

Yeah, yeah, heard that before but don't be afraid Alex.. I'm not wrong at all. Postnikova is written half a century ago. A lot of research has happened since then. In addition, there are mistakes and incorrectness's in Postnikova, this is one of them. I could list at least 50 "mistakes or even more. As an example, on page 201 in PL there are more than 12 mistakes on this one single page. Never rely on one single source, check from other as well as newer sources too. Postnikova is not the only source to fall back to beware of doing that mistake.

[Qrt.S]

Sorry Alex., another mistake. Because the years are 1857 and 1861 are within the time span a mentioned you cannot know whether it is Mor or Mitin. Actually it has no major meaning which one it is but as I said nice to know. I think Dad's question relates to this. A totally different question is that how come that two assayers used the same initials on their marks.

Here is one possible possibility or not but which one is which one? I haven't the faintest idea and I don't think anybody has.

[Dad]

In the book P-L wrote incorrect facts. It is the good book, but has many mistakes, unfortunately.
Mitin A.N. - minor assaymaster of SPb assay office in 1841-1848
Mo(o)r A.Ja. - assaymaster of SPb assay office in 1850-1866

[Qrt.S]

@Dad

Where from is this information? Kindly check green Ivanov page 724

[Qrt.S]

...and what it this then ?

[Dad]

@Dad

Where from is this information? Kindly check green Ivanov page 724

I have no Ivanov's green book. And I don't know what there is written on p. 174.

But, I know, that in SPb assay office in 1868 there was assaymaster Vladimir Smirnov and assaymaster Pavel Mikhailov, only. Without AM

[Dad]

...and what it this then ?

I don't know)). From where it? Pleas, show me the real foto, but no drawn pictures.

[Qrt.S]

@Dad

Hahahaa, please don't joke with me Dad!

show me the real foto, but no drawn pictures.

How many real photos do you have in Postnikova? These marks are called soot marks. They are copies of original marks for the printing process of all older books.

Leonard Bäcksbacka from Finland is a very well know researcher regarding Russian silver marks. He has written two books (In Swedish).

1 Narvas och Nyens guldsmeder. Published in 1946
2 St Petersburgs juvelerare, guld- och silversmeder 1714-1870. Published 1951

Both books are limited numbered editions of only 500 items each printed. My books are number 11 and 47.

You will find his name in many books' list of sources. A lot of information in Postnikova's book is taken from these books. Also information in Annelore Leistikov's book Baltisches Silber is from the mentioned books.

Yes you are right, Vladimir Stepanovitch Smirnov was in StP's office 1866-1870 but another source says 1868-1871 and and Pavel Illarionovitch Mihailov was there 1867-1869 but so was Mitin and Mor too. However, there are some discrepancies regarding where Mor actually assayed. He was also in Tobolsk...


You don't have Ivanov!? Dad! get it, it contains essential new information (but also mistakes unfortunately)

What is stated in Ivanov about Mitin and Mor is what I wrote in my input.

[Ubaranda]

I agree that the book of P-L contains a lot of mistakes but why not to trust it in this case (Mitin and More)?

[Qrt.S]

Because I already showed some marks indicating that something is wrong in Postnikova regarding Mitin/Mor

[Zolotnik]

Hi all -

nice discussion!
In my opinion the from OP shown mark is not the known Bragin mark:



The known Bragin mark looks like that:



Here some original marks - not only sketches etc.:









Bragin made dessert spoons, but that is not what is shown...

Regards
Zolotnik

[Dad]

@Dad

Where from is this information? Kindly check green Ivanov page 724

Hi, Ort.S.

I already wrote, but I shall repeat:

... I collect data like particles of gold everywhere and I have a doubt about everything, but...
Sources are very different. In modern sources in the end of books earlier sources are printed (bibliography), in those - more earlier and etc .Mistakes made in earlier sources repeat in later sources.
In the basis of all sources there should be real documents of old time. These documents is priority sources for me....

I don't joke. Please, show me a photos of punches from real items, where AM (assaymaster) from Petersburg after 1868.

Best Reg..

[Qrt.S]

Hello Dad,

I think everybody who is reading or writing on these sites is fully aware of the fact that especially in internet you find false information due to this stupid "copy-effect" you also mentioned. This problem relates unfortunately to newer books too, especially relating to Russian silver marks. Some of them are directly copied from Postnikova with all its mistakes. In addition the copycat has made new errors in his book. So here we go again...
However, the authors of older books were much more honest and reliable. They didn't copy without checking it first. In addition they also mentioned their source in the end of the book. Yes, they made some mistakes/errors too as we have seen...

I will also repeat what I already stated.The book from what I showed the marks is written in 1951 by a very respectable researcher i.e. Leonard Bäcksbacka. The marks are soot marks! I seems to me that this expression is unfamiliar to you and maybe to some others too, therefore:
What is called a soot mark is a copy of an original mark i.e. you cannot make a soot mark unless you don't have an authentic item with a mark. That is exactly what e.g. Postnikova has done in here book too, making soot marks and printed them! Yes, there are errors in Postnikova but they are seldom if ever related to the soot mark it self but to the identification/name given to it.

I have no reason whatsoever to believe that Bäcksbacka would have counterfeited the soot marks in his book. Why would he have done that? The marks are existing, authentic marks. I have no idea where these objects are and therefore unable to show photos of any of those marks. That you must understand. I cannot either ask Bäcksbacka because he past away in 1963. Nevertheless, it is up to you whether you trust the book or not, I trust.

Get Bäcksbacka and green Ivanov asap. They are more than vital for you if you really research Russian silver marks.
Ah, almost forgot. There are some errors in both Bäcksbacka and Ivanov too. That is an unfortunate but as well an unavoidable reality.

Try to accept the facts given Dad
Rgds.
Qrt.S