Russian Centerpiece? Help please...

[findcollections]

Hello,

I came across this Russian Centerpiece and I am curious if it is a serving piece or if anyone has heard of the name of the company who manufactured. It's stunning, but wish I knew more about it. Any help appreciated. Thank You.

http://s18.postimage.org/sccnuhfux/IMG_1070.jpg

http://s12.postimage.org/p2n2m3du5/IMG_1073.jpg

http://s17.postimage.org/bid0sngrj/IMG_1076.jpg

[dognose]

Hi findcollections,

Please post an image of the marks on this piece. Also, please give an indication of the size.

Embedded images get a far greater response than just posting links.

Trev.

[Zolotnik]

Hi find collections -

the shown "object" is no centerpiece but a kovsh (traditional Russian drinking vessel), not bad made, ca. 4.5 kilo silver, on the bottom the to sibiria banned names of the "Dekabrists" and made by M. Ovtschinnikov. Often there is also a Latvian silver mark visible. See the photos.

Object 1








Object 2









Unfortunately this is a fake, as far as I know were 6 made and sold and sold and sold.Whenever the owner realized that he had a fake he tried to sell it. But it is getting dificult because now everybody know this fakes which were a big success 10 years ago. Nevertheless - someone is always trying to get rid of this monster.

Regards
Zolotnik

[Qrt.S]

I completely share Zolotnik's opinion. It is a faked object. Zolotnik and I discussed this case by PMs about 1-2 years ago. At about the same time two similar objects were at sale in different auction houses. One in Finland and the other in Germany. The marks on both objects are exactly similar that tells us that they are cast. If we had two separately made objects, they cannot have absolutely similar marks on exactly the same place on both.

Sorry my good man...

[findcollections]

Hi - Thanks for all the responses. It is really a beautiful piece of Russian Silver, and interesting that people would drink out of such a large vessel. Here is a picture of the hallmark. Admin edit read forum rules. Thanks

[Zolotnik]

Hi findcollections

maybe you should read the forum rules again - and maybe you could find someone who explain to you what is a fake and what was written about this fake.

Regards
Zolotnik

[AG2012]

Excuse me, I did not follow the discussion regarding this fake; please, tell me whether the kovsh is cast? (Qrt.S Mentioned marks being in the exactly same place).There is only one close-up here and it looks cast to me; the entire décor. So deep engraving, chiseling or, better to say, practically carving silver would be a piece of art — were hand engraved fakes ever made, I mean really deeply hand engraved?
This may be helpful to recognize genuine silver; I want to learn something, thank you.

[Juke]

Hi!

I participated in the auction in Finland and saw the similar object. As Qrt.S mentioned the marks on all these three items (I assume also the other ones Zolotnik mentioned) are exactly on the same place which makes it impossible for them to be authentic. Therefore at least the marks are cast and most likely the whole kovsch is cast/pressed as they have exactly the same decors, written 'engravings' on the bottom etc.

Just for clarification these kind of big original kovsches were not made for drinking purposes but as impressive items to express the wealth of the owners. But as said these shown objects can not be authentic.

Regards,
Juke

[Zolotnik]

Hi all -
we all want to learn....






Regards
Zolotnik

[AG2012]

Amazing piece of history;thank you so much.May I ask again? Is this kovsh shown here cast? It does not look hand engraved to me.Does this fact help in recognizing genuine silver - deep engraving like this is vary difficult and time consuming? Punching lucrative fake marks on already existing kovshi is reasonable, but doing highly skilled engraving that might take weeks (and a master who knows how to do it) is far more demanding.It is much easier to cast them and then ad a stroke or two of engraving where needed.

[Zolotnik]

Hi AG2012 -

of course these kovshi are cast - and the big game ten years ago - still finding some fools today. Selling fakes seem more lucrative than originals....

Regards
Zolotnik

[AG2012]

Thank you all so much for your kind attention to my questions.
You may be interested to watch an engraver doing it in a traditional way (the block is moved by hand). The piece of silver he does is flat, though, a bit easier than three dimensional objects. The second video shows machine engraving process that takes a few minutes only.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgMqqA9b ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8MGSGkSSLY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"
Fortunately, one can easily recognize the difference under 10X magnification.

Thank you again
Best regards