Nice Russian Tea Caddy - identify maker

[drillo]

I just bought this ``Russian Art Nouveau Silver Tea Caddy dating from the early 1900s, pre revolution`` from a seller in Missouri. (PO Box, though, no address).
And this is the funniest thing: `` Please check for availability``.
Fortunately, there were some in stock right now. Population is slightly over 50 000 but full of Russian tea caddies in pristine condition.

This could be a nice joke, but the story is not told very correctly...
I saw that tea caddy online few days ago. The seller has some items with `` Please check for availability``.. But it is not correct to assume that he has tons of then in stock as you say "Fortunately, there were some in stock right now". ...
This is not very fair...
`` Please check for availability``. can well mean that he is not the owner of a specific item and he needs to check with the owner, for instance!

Please inform if you really contacted the seller or if it's just a joke otherwise you could be misleading those who read your comments...

[oel]

Hi Drillo,


Welcome to the forum. To come to the point; authentic Russian tea caddies are one of the rarest objects of Russian silver. The hallmarks on your caddy do not add up and we could use the term dubious or the more friendly term pseudo marks. Of course you always could go for a 2nd opinion at another forum. Good luck

Oel.

[dognose]

Hi drillo,

Please confirm that you have obtained permission from the copyright holder to display the images of the two tea caddies.

Trev.

[drillo]

Hi drillo -
what else do you need to know or what do you expect from me?
What we do here is more or less a distance-diagnosis based on many years of experience (good and bad, victory and defeat, correspondence and error). Of course is it important to inspect certain doubtful objects in person - but if the shown signs speak for themselves...otherwise I would congratulate you to the nice, authentic object!
You can be sure that I am conscious of the responsibility I have by judging over good or bad. But also I have no problem to tell you that I do not know if a certai object is a fake or not. Whatever I write here on the forum is my personal opinion - founded on dekades of experience, thousands of objects, communication with other collectors and a
watchful eye on the fake market - otherwise I would be the first victim. And you would not believe what I see every week! Just read the forum and you have an impression what is going on - 90% fakes - all sold for much money - even by the famous auction houses. I can not change the world - I only can help the one who is willing to listen to prevent further mistakes. That is all. I think a further discussion if you own fakes or not is useless. Enjoy what you have.

Regards
Zolotnik

Hi Zolotnik,
for some reasons probably I have some problems explaining myself, but with messages on a forum I guess is normal.
As I said before, I appreciate your opinion and reply which I'm sure is based on experience and I do not doubt that your opinion is sincere!
As I also said, even if the item turns out to be fake, it's no problem, I can accept it.
From my point of view, in order to learn something, what I do not understand is how you can express your opinion on my object based on a photograph and you cannot express your opinion on two similar items, which by the way in my opinion are of the same kind as the one just posted by AG2012.

As I wrote I am not an expert, but if my tea caddy is fake (and it can be, no problem), then I think also the others are fakes.

You wrote a lot about my caddy and about its too good condition, its look too new for a 100+ years old item, about its engraving and engraving techniques etc... we spoke about the Real Thing and about comparing with the Real Thing.
I honestly do not understand how with all your experience of decades you are anable to express your personal opinion on items similar to mine to make understand what the differences might be between a fake or an original.
I am not an expert and I think they are all the same thing.
Is it possible you do not have a personal opinion after all those years of collecting?
I really do not understand it, but thanks again for your time anyway.

[drillo]

Hi drillo,
Please confirm that you have obtained permission from the copyright holder to display the images of the two tea caddies.
Trev.

Hi Trev, "Fair Use" allows the use of any images for commentary, criticism, research etc... in complete respect of copyright law, without any need to ask for permission to the copyright holders to use images for the above mentioned reasons. I am a journalist and I am very well aware of this.
If there is any problem, please be so kind to explain. Tks! (Admin - replied via PM)

[Zolotnik]

Hi drillo -
I do not know where this will lead, repeating and repeating - but please read what I write:

And you would not believe what I see every week! Just read the forum and you have an impression what is going on - 90% fakes - all sold for much money - even by the famous auction houses.

Regards
Zolotnik

[AG2012]

Of course it was a joke; was one of those funny icons needed to indicate it was a joke? By the way, have searched for some historical data; it seems every Russian refugee after the revolution fled to Missouri and took one brand new tea caddy and they were stubbornly kept hidden in families for 100 years and all emerged now in pristine condition.(A JOKE)
Let’s be serious — ``tea caddy topic`` is exhausted.

[drillo]

And tks to you all for your comments and opinins!

[Dad]

Of course it was a joke; was one of those funny icons needed to indicate it was a joke? By the way, have searched for some historical data; it seems every Russian refugee after the revolution fled to Missouri and took one brand new tea caddy and they were stubbornly kept hidden in families for 100 years and all emerged now in pristine condition.(A JOKE)
Let’s be serious — ``tea caddy topic`` is exhausted.

Hi.

It is not necessary to hurry with conclusions.

On the tea caddy shown by you there is a rare punch: for export. Such punch put (1899-1908), when officially export out abroad for sale and thus returned a half of tax .

Best Reg..

[Dad]

I beg your pardon. Pic. for last message :

[drillo]

Hi.

It is not necessary to hurry with conclusions.

On the tea caddy shown by you there is a rare punch: for export. Such punch put (1899-1908), when officially export out abroad for sale and thus returned a half of tax .

Best Reg..

Hi Dad, just to be clear, are you saying that you think the Tea Caddy posted by AG2012 is original?

[drillo]

Images of the top of my Tea Caddy from outisde and inside

[drillo]

To my eyes it looks like hand made engraving and not machine made. I think that machine-made engravings ought to be more precise and more uniform, whereas here there are many little differences and "impresiosions" that for me belong to a hand made work. It is just my impression, but maybe I am wrong...

[drillo]

Larger images for you to judge the engraving.
Original or fake I don't know as it is not my field, but to me it still looks like hand made.
You all are the experts and understand much more then me. Hand-made or machine-made???

[Dad]

Hi Dad, just to be clear, are you saying that you think the Tea Caddy posted by AG2012 is original?

Hi.

I have no reasons to consider it a fake.

[drillo]

Tks for your reply and opinion Dad.

[AG2012]

The comment is limited to engraving and soldering.
Yes, it does look like hand engraving, at least the ornament. As for human figures, cannot tell for sure if not augmented with laser engraving and then contours highlighted. But let’s have in mind any artist who studied printing techniques can use burin (cold chisel) for more difficult copper engraving.This pattern is simple to engrave.
Another thing; it seems the panels were engraved separately and then assembled — soldered together, which was not the way engraved silver was made (arrow number 2: the engraved line is interrupted during soldering). Arrow 1 shows something I would never expect from any serious silversmith; this is not the way to solder silver. If properly soldered and then polished solder lines should be hardly visible and never left like this — not even a solder line here — the panel did not fit, and too much solder was needed to fill the gap.
I am still suspicious, now based on craftsmanship only; somehow it looks like mass product to me. But do not take it for granted — more important are facts about Russian tea caddies being extremely rare and so many of almost the same shape and décor have emerged lately.

[drillo]

Hi again AG2012,
and tks for your comment and for confirming the engaving (all or part of it) is hand made.
As to arrow n.2 I would not now, but IF it is original and IF it is over 100 years old, then I guess some wear sould be normal.
As to arrow n.1 you should reconsider what you wrote as that trace does not exist on the object. It is just a shadow / reflection on the photo. There are no sings of soldering in that area and there is absolutely no trace. It is smooth as the rest of the area.
If this can be of help for your judgment, I will be happy to try to take more detailed pictures.

Also, please consider that this piece has not "emerged lately" as I can assure 100% that it has been in the same family collection for at least 25-30 years as it was bought at most during the 1980s or even back in the 1970s.
At this point of the discussion I am considering there are good chances that it may be authentic. But if it is a forgery, then it was made as a fake at least 25-30 years ago. So in your analysis please take into consideration this "vintage" aspect.
I appreciate your help and experience, tks!
Drillo

[Zolotnik]

Hi all -
new delivery has arrived.....





Regards
Zolotnik

[drillo]

Hi Zolotnik!
New delivery?
Please be so kind to be a little more clear: you just posted this "new delivery" Tea Caddy. At least you could express a clear opinion about it so everyone would understand your point. If you think this "new delivery" is a fake, just say it!
If you are not clear, at this point of the discussion there is no point for images posted as "new deliveries". it's just nonsense and does not prove anything.
If your theory is that all existing tea caddies in the world with Chinese patterns are fake, just say clearely that this is your theory. But say something, otherwise "new delivery" is just a crap post...

I can do exactly the same about the painted enamels from your collection that you posted in this discussion. I could go on internet looking for images and sharing them as "new delivery". So what???

There is no need for fighting. You have made your point clear, I understood very well that you think it is a fake.
But if you want to bring more to the discussion, please be so kind to state clear things.
I may not be an expert, but I am a person who likes analysis and logic discussions.

So, please let's start with the basics and with the facts we can have for granted and then eveyone will be able to take their conclusions.

Facts:
1) The present Tea Caddy has at least 25-30 years. I can state this as a fact and everyone needs to accept that because it has been in the same family collection for at least this period.
2) At this point we can agree that the engraving is hand made (I still can provide detailed images, but I think the most recent I published are clear enough). (Quoting AG2012 "Recognizing genuine hand engraving should not be difficult and having in mind the cost of hand engraving it would be more expensive than the item itself.")

Opinions on MARKS:
Zolotnik says they are fishy | Dad says they are original

Opinions on similar items
A)Two Tea Caddies sold by Christie's: Zolotnik says he is not able to express an opinion about them | Nobody else left other opinions
B) "Russian Art Nouveau Silver Tea Caddy" posted by AG2012: AG2012 did not express a clear opinion but we all got the idea he considered it a fake | Dad consiedered it authentic and said it also beared a rare export mark (then nobody replied to confirm or deny)
C) Zolotnik just posted a new "Exagonal Tea Caddy" but did not really express a clear opinion nor told any points on which his theory would be based (fake marks? machine engraving?)

So at this point I think we need to come up with FACTS.
If Zolotnik thinks that ALL tea caddies made with Chinese Decor are fakes, please say it clear, so we should all know that all of a sudden a forger decided to invent pure phantasy about this new subject he created as a totally fake motiv. But why inventig a completely new fake motiv if you want to create and sell a fake? A fake should look like an original, not like a foolish invention...