Nice Russian Tea Caddy - identify maker

[drillo]

Hi everyone!
This is another Russian piece from my collection: a silver Tea Caddy.
As I previously said I am not an expert on Russian silver, so I appreciate your reliable opinion.
I have tried to look up for the hallmarks and I think the piece was made in Moscow in 1985 and the assayer is possibly Lev Oleks (Lev Oleks Fedorovich) (1890-1896).
I have not been able to identify the maker's mark "П. Ч" (or maybe the other way round "Һ Џ"?).
Please let me know your opinion about the piece and any clues about the maker. Thanks
Images: full object view - hallmarks on the bottom - hallmarks on the opener (top of the cork)

[AG2012]

This is nice tea caddy; the question is who made it. Russian marks added to make it more lucrative? Only if the piece was not profitable enough; one would not be so stupid to ruin a Victorian tea caddy or even Chinese export silver (Canton). Besides, British hallmarks are difficult to remove. Will not engage into it — beyond my capabilities to judge.
Eagerly waiting to see the comments.

[Zolotnik]

Hi drillo -
Russian tea caddys are very, very hard to find - especially in such a mint condition! All the marks are phony, the maker ПЧ should look like Tschumakov Petr S.(PL #2842-45)...
Industrial made Chinese contemporary production. In different patterns available.
Please take care what you buy in the future - Russian silver is even sometimes for me difficult...the fakes get better and better and even the marks and punches are more authentic than in the past - thanks to fora like this :-).....

Regards
Zolotnik

[drillo]

Hi Zolotnik!
Thanks again for your opinion.
I have not bought the silver pieces I posted, they are from the collection of my family and they have been purchased some 25 - 30 years ago or even before. Mainly they are british silver pieces except for the objects I recently posted on the forum.
I honestly had some doubts about the "Faberge" piece, but I was quite confident about this Tea Caddy and I saw some similar ones sold by Christie's on their website.
Can you be more precise about your opinion? Is the overall item not convincing you, or its quality or condition or marks?
Please let me understand better! Thanks

[Zolotnik]

Hi drillo -
with all respect and without the attempt to offend you, I have 2 questions: how much do you know about silver in general (how it is made, engraved, finished, style and markmanship/quality)? What do you know about Russian silver (marking system, how must authentic marks look, who worked and assayed when and where etc.)?
As layman you will see this tea caddy and will admire the form, style, engraving and the exotic marks - even the shown quality is a surprise for you - 117 years old and in such a top state!
As a professional or knowing collector you will see the tea caddy, the machine engraving, the unprecise pattern and composition and most of all the wrong marks. That would be enough to go your way. To explain all details I must assume a big specialist knowledge.

Normaly my standard answer would be:

I've never understood the urge to "learn" about fakes. It's a waste of time. Spend that energy learning about the real thing and you'll know the fakes when you see them because they won't look like the real thing. No matter how much you "learn" about fakes, you'll never know everything about them so it's literally an all-consuming time-suck that has no value since every day new fakes hit the market.

Regards
Zolotnik

[drillo]

Hi Zolotnik,
I do respect your knowledge and expertise. I know very very little about Russian silver. For the moment I am not a silver collector, I just happen to have some items in my family collection and I am looking to find out what they are. That's all. I appreciate expert's opinions. But after receiving opinions I will not sell the pieces or throw them in the bin. I will simply keep them for what they are. But maybe I will learn something from you all, when you have the patience to wright comments and explanations.

Having said that, I agree with your "standard answer" and that it is first important to learn about the Real Thing; but the only mean for me to do that is through comparison. So, since I am not an expert, I go to reputable websites and try to look up for items that are similar to mine in order to make a comparison. Or I post my items on a reliable forum like this one. To learn and understand.

Now my point is: I found the two following Tea Caddies on a reputable website. To my eyes they look totally similar to mine as to the shape, kind, engraving and condition. They too should be 100+ years old and the condition looks pretty the same as mine.
So my assumption would be: eather they are all good or are all fakes.
So I would like to ask: are they the Real Thing to use as reference or not? or are they forgeries too?



Also I would like to give you some information that may be useful for your record:
- one thing I am certain of as a matter of fact is that all pieces from my family collection have been purchased at least 25/30 years ago and even before. So if my Tea Caddy is fake as you say - and I take your opinion for good - it surely is not that "contemporary". If it is not good, it means that fakes of this kind were made at least 25-30 years ago. So, at least, this (and the "Faberge") would be a vintage fake :-)

[Dad]

Hi, All.

It look like original item. Very Nice Russian Tea Caddy. No problem.
Zolotnik is right, it's made by Petr Chumakov's factory. Assaymaster Olex Lev Fridrihovich.

Best Reg..

[Zolotnik]

Hi drillo -

I know how it is when someone tells you that you have a fake - but after the shock and the disappointment - it is necessary to start investigating - in a kind of forensic method:
Why are the decorations around the Chinese sujet in panslavistic or neobaroque decor? Do you have seen, touched and investigated any original, authentic tea caddys for comparasion? Why are the assay - and makermarks so fishy but the overall condition is flawless? How about the size - is it according to the at that time available teablocks? Etc., etc.
Regards
Zolotnik

[Zolotnik]

Hi Dad -

All the marks are phony, the maker ПЧ should look like Tschumakov Petr S.(PL #2842-45)...

I wrote: ...should look not is.. a big diference!

Regards
Zolotnik

[Zolotnik]

Hi drillo -
here some examples how unprincipled and impertinently fakers work - the shown tea caddys are from an 1997 auction from one of the best known auction houses:

Fedor Rückert


if you know the famous and unique style of Rückert you at once recognize the fake

Left: 6th Artel, Right: Khlebnikov



please note, that both caddys have the identic pattern but were made by two different (in style and technique) firms

Sazikov





Caddy and sugar bowl in the same pattern and style (!!)

From my collection (silver/laquer) a configeration which was standard



Maybe you now understand how dangerous it is to believe everything what you see or hear - without knowing the facts.

Regards
Zolotnik

[drillo]

Hi drillo -
I know how it is when someone tells you that you have a fake - but after the shock and the disappointment - it is necessary to start investigating - in a kind of forensic method...

Hi Zolotnik, maybe I have not been clear enough: no shock and no disappointment at all in any case!
If I posted my object on this forum is to receive straight opinions about expert collectors, may there be positive or negative opinions.
If my objects are good I will be happy, if they are fake I will accept it and I will survive without any problems. So I will accept any opinion!
On the other hand I think I can learn something from collectors who leave their comments.
So, if possible, I will benefit from clear explanation rather than more questions. If this is possibile :-)

So the kind of approach I would prefer and appreciate from expert collectors would be like "the marks should be different ... or the shape is wrong or the engraving is machine made etc..." and possibly a little explanation rather than "have you ever had a real one in your hands? do you have seen this or that? etc..."
As I wrote I am not a silver collector, so my answer to your questions would always be "No, I have not had any other in my hands" :-)
If I have posted my items here is because I do not have experteese in this field! I hope this is more clear now!

Now, about the "forensic method", can you please give me your expert opinion about the other two Tea Caddied I posted as a comparison to mine? Are they in your opinion original or fakes? Are they of the same type as mine or what are the differences?

Thanks!

[AG2012]

Unlike museum curators, who are kind people, auction houses do not discuss, nor cooperate, they almost never show marks. My personal experience with silver shown to me and then sold with the most reputable auction houses; there was no need for forensic methods whatsoever — missing crosses filed off silver coins and attached to Russian icon boxes, late XVIII century. Not even real Orthodox crosses, but more like Maltese cross — easier to make.
Do you think the experts there bothered to recognize the inconsistency, and let alone the way the crosses were fixed? No way!

[AG2012]

By the way;what mark was struck under strange looking ``ПЧ``? It is not the same punch re - struck carelessly.which happens.Obviously not the same.

[drillo]

Actually I felt the same curiosity about that mark, that clearely has been re-struck.
On the contrary, on the top of the cork the mark is very clear...
What can be the reason for re-strucking it?
1) If you think it is authentic, even if it looks odd, it could be because it did not mark well enough the firts time... (?)
2) If you think it is fake, then it could be to cover / hyde another mark... (?)
But: if it is a fake and a "contemporary" forgery as Zolotnik says, how could there be a previous mark to be covered? (a new machine-made item cannot have a pre-exsisting mark...)
3) If there existed a previous mark, this should mean that marks were taken from another authetic object (a spoon, etc...). So in this case the marks would be original marks added to a fake item (?) (Zolotnik said the marks where "fishy", Dad said it's an original item, AG2012 said maybe marks were added to make it more lucrative).

As I am not an expert I am just trying to use "logic", so after this analysis, please express your opinions about the marks as:
1) Original marks on original item
2) Original marks on fake item
3) Fake marks on fake item

Thanks :-)

[AG2012]

Zolotnik:

As a professional or knowing collector you will see the tea caddy, the machine engraving.....

Right! Engraving is even more difficult to fake than cloisonné; there are few hand engravers and they are expensive. And hand engraving is easy to distinguish from laser engraving, which is more like marking or etching bare metals. If magnified enough (e.g. 10 X) one can see minor imperfections in hand engraving: lines are deeper at the beginning, sometimes the tool slips away and there are mistakes not visible to the naked eye.Recognizing genuine hand engraving should not be difficult and having in mind the cost of hand engraving it would be more expensive than the item itself.


A gun engraver:
``Turn around time on guns averages about 9 months, more or less, depending on the time of year. This does not mean that I need your gun for that time, usually just a few weeks is all I need for the actual engraving``
The engraving shown here costs $ 1100.

[Zolotnik]

Hi drillo -

Authentic Russian tea caddys are one of the rarest objects of Russian silver - in over 25 years of collecting (and I spent a lot of time in-country and have some "connections"!!) I only have seen a handful in the wild - mostly used and battered. Suddenly the auction houses are full of brandnew (in the true sense of the word) tea caddys, always with chinoiseries. Probably all this objects have been untouched and stored away safely in cupboards for the last 100 years....
By the way, the famous Khlebnikov firm shows in the sale catalogue only 2 silver tea caddys (a sign that there was no big demand) - all without chinoiserie! I am sure you can find countless tea caddys from Khlebnikov in enamel etc. in the different auction houses - all sparkling new.





Have a look at the interesting price :-)

If the from you shown other objects are authentic depends also on the marks - if you can show them I can tell you more.
Maybe one should count one and one together and use some common sense - that´s what I do when I am unsure...

Regards
Zolotnik

[Zolotnik]

Hi drillo -
I think I made my opinion clear and firm and gave you some examples of what is going on in the "scene". I am not responsible for the opinion of others - qualified or not. You can believe it or ignore it. It is up to you. I just want to help...
3) Fake marks on fake item

Regards
Zolotnik

[drillo]

I always appreciate and respect your opinion and your help Zolotnik!
And clearely I understood it! But please be so kind to help me understand more about your view and experiece.

About the two posted tea caddies, I do not have images of their marks, the two objects were sold by Christie's and are on their website.
My point is that you said that the engraving on mine looks dull (machine made) and that the object does not look 100+ hundred years old as its condition are too good etc...
So, let's keep the marks out for a moment, as they are just one element: please tell me your straight-forward opinion about theother two tea caddies. I am sure with your experience you surely can tell me what you think (if you go to Christie's website - past items - you can get high res images).

[AG2012]

I just bought this ``Russian Art Nouveau Silver Tea Caddy dating from the early 1900s, pre revolution`` from a seller in Missouri. (PO Box, though, no address).
And this is the funniest thing: `` Please check for availability``.
Fortunately, there were some in stock right now. Population is slightly over 50 000 but full of Russian tea caddies in pristine condition.

[Zolotnik]

Hi drillo -
what else do you need to know or what do you expect from me?
What we do here is more or less a distance-diagnosis based on many years of experience (good and bad, victory and defeat, correspondence and error). Of course is it important to inspect certain doubtful objects in person - but if the shown signs speak for themselves...otherwise I would congratulate you to the nice, authentic object!
You can be sure that I am conscious of the responsibility I have by judging over good or bad. But also I have no problem to tell you that I do not know if a certai object is a fake or not. Whatever I write here on the forum is my personal opinion - founded on dekades of experience, thousands of objects, communication with other collectors and a
watchful eye on the fake market - otherwise I would be the first victim. And you would not believe what I see every week! Just read the forum and you have an impression what is going on - 90% fakes - all sold for much money - even by the famous auction houses. I can not change the world - I only can help the one who is willing to listen to prevent further mistakes. That is all. I think a further discussion if you own fakes or not is useless. Enjoy what you have.

Regards
Zolotnik