Khlebnikov spoon???

[Maria78]

Hello! I bought these spoons as original Khlebnikov. I am very grateful for your opinion. Best regards Maria

[Zolotnik]

Hi Maria -
I do not know how much you know about Russian silver, the used marks and the famous firm Khlebnikov. A quick introduction:
KHLEBNIKOV. One of the more important firms of silversmiths in Russia, active in Moscow from 1871 on. Exhibited at the World Exhibition in Vienna in 1873. Enamel objects of very high quality in all techniques, often cloisonneé, champlevé and plique-à- jour side by side in the same piece. Colours: pastel tones. also violet, green, yellow.
Now to your spoon:
1) the shown assay master does not exist in Moscow (phantasy)
2) the shown marks does not look like they should (phantasy)
3) the shown quality/pattern and workmanship is very poor (phantasy)
Facit: Fake

Regards
Zolotnik

[Maria78]

Dear Zolotnik, According P.-L. (Page 230), Ivan Khlebnikov has since 1870 a company in Moscow. This spoon dated 1877th So this position is correct.
best regards
Maria

[Maria78]

Sorry! I misunderstood you. Assay Meister -these are shown in P.-L. Page 205 (of unknown masters in Moscow from 1872 to 1881).

[Maria78]

I respect your opinion, dear Zolotnik. I'm probably to blame for the fact that given enough pictures. here's another.

http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/r550/leo682/7.jpg

http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/r550/leo682/8.jpg

Here are other spoon of Khlebnikov

[Qrt.S]

Hmmmmm...some minor doubts..., but anyway, FYI! The assayer is not unknown. He is Ivan Jestimovitsh Konstantinov. His working period in Moscow was 1876-1882 unless otherwise proved (not 1872-1881).

[Qrt.S]

Sorry forgot to ask. Kindly show some better and bigger close ups of the marks only.

[Maria78]

Thank you for the information. I found this at Postnikova hallmark. Where is your information?

[Maria78]

Sorry forgot to ask. Kindly show some better and bigger close ups of the marks only.

Attention! The spoon is hallmarked from Supplier of the Court of the Grand Duke :

1872 - Company - Supplier of the Court of the Grand Duke Konstantin Nikolaevich.

1877 - Company - Supplier of Grand Duke Vladimir Alexandrovich

[Maria78]

Hi Maria -
I do not know how much you know about Russian silver, the used marks and the famous firm Khlebnikov. A quick introduction:
KHLEBNIKOV. One of the more important firms of silversmiths in Russia, active in Moscow from 1871 on. Exhibited at the World Exhibition in Vienna in 1873. Enamel objects of very high quality in all techniques, often cloisonneé, champlevé and plique-à- jour side by side in the same piece. Colours: pastel tones. also violet, green, yellow.
Now to your spoon:
1) the shown assay master does not exist in Moscow (phantasy)
2) the shown marks does not look like they should (phantasy)
3) the shown quality/pattern and workmanship is very poor (phantasy)
Facit: Fake

Regards
Zolotnik

FYI:

http://www.russian-antique.net/antiq/in ... 6-10-14-37

[Qrt.S]

Sorry forgot to ask. Kindly show some better and bigger close ups of the marks only.

Attention! The spoon is hallmarked from Supplier of the Court of the Grand Duke :

1872 - Company - Supplier of the Court of the Grand Duke Konstantin Nikolaevich.

1877 - Company - Supplier of Grand Duke Vladimir Alexandrovich

OK, thanks for the better photo, but what is your point with the above stated and the link?

[Maria78]

OK, thanks for the better photo, but what is your point with the above stated and the link?

Zolotnik says that " the shown marks does not look like they should (phantasy)". On this link kan you look, that is the hallmark of my spoon identical to original.

[Dad]

Hmmmmm...some minor doubts..., but anyway, FYI! The assayer is not unknown. He is Ivan Jestimovitsh Konstantinov. His working period in Moscow was 1876-1882 unless otherwise proved (not 1872-1881).

Hi, Qrt.S
I beg your pardon.)) Ivan Efimovich Konstantinov (his father's name Efim) 1874-1882

Best Reg.

[oel]

Hello Maria,

Welcome to the forum. You say you bought the spoons as original Khlebnikov but have you any doubts or are you testing our contributors? Why are you in doubt? You know where you bought the ‘original Khlebnikov’s' and how much you paid for those, could you please enlighten us with some documentation. Thanks for your cooperation.

Oel.

[Zolotnik]

Hi Maria 78 -

sorry for the error about the assay master - did not look close enough - it is Konstantinov, Ivan Jefimowitsch, in my sources 1874-1882 on duty in Moscow.
In my opinion the spoon and the box are fakes! Most of the from you shown Khlebnikov marks are fake marks. One "expert" copy from another "expert", the reason: no original and authentic object at hand.
I enclose some photos of Khlebnikov spoons and a box - maybe you see the difference in quality..

only the enamel spoon is from Khlebnikov










If you ask how to know if it is a fake - my standard answer:

I've never understood the urge to "learn" about fakes. It's a waste of time. Spend that energy learning about the real thing and you'll know the fakes when you see them because they won't look like the real thing. No matter how much you "learn" about fakes, you'll never know everything about them so it's literally an all-consuming time-suck that has no value since every day new fakes hit the market.

Regards
Zolotnik

[Qrt.S]

Correct Dad, my mistake, a typo. I meant to write Jefimovitsh or in English actually Yefimovich but my fingers slipped ;-))). Anyway, do we agree that Cyrillic E is Ye or in my language Je. Transliteration problems as often with Russian names/letters.

The reason for the difference in the working period is that different sources give different years. Some times it is difficult to know what are the correct years (I don't always know for sure).

[Qrt.S]

Maria78

Please, do not think that what you might find on internet would be the absolute and only truth. You must check from other sources too. Internet is the last to believe. You must know that anybody can put anything in internet, fakers included.

[Zolotnik]

Hi Qrt.S -

we both get older and older (not wiser!) - instead of "Dad" you can call me Grand-Dad!

Regards
Zolotnik

[Zolotnik]

Hi Maria78 -

please have a look at the sloppy details (open ends) and unsymetric composition. Something nobody would expect or accept from Khlebnikov!
See the big difference? If you once had held an authentic spoon from Khlebnikov in your hands - this one would go in the trash bin!



Regards
Zolotnik

[AG2012]

Why are ``cells`` not closed everywhere and the enamel spills into adjacent cells? Red enamel is dull in appearance and spotted with dark areas. Translucent red enamel is the challenge, and they had better avoided it. Even Faberge experimented with it for years. Not many have solved the problem (A,Michelsen in Denmark e.g.). Are we sure it is twisted wire the cells are made of? When cloisonné or champleve is posted we would really like good close — ups.