Please help to identify the spoons makers-7?

[gena42]

Hello,Help and Thanks .
Gintaras

[Zolotnik]

Hi -
the shown Sazikov marks are fake marks - see past diskussions in the forum.

Regards
Zolotnik

[Dad]

Hi

Zolotnik is too mistrustful.))
It's original Sazikov from St. Petersburg. 188_ . Assaymaster Ivan Vonifatievich Evstigneev.

Best Reg..

[AG2012]

Hi,
I do respect you, both of you, deeply and honestly. The mark in cursive letters (handwriting); have we ever seen it? I do not remember it in cursive letters. The spoons posted here are scrap silver and more valuable for the marks themselves, possibly to be transposed to more lucrative items. Can we decide once and forever; was there Sazikov in St Petersburg in cursive letters or not? In either way — the answer should be based on reliable data. Not like ``I have not seen it`` or `` Not recorded so far`` or ``They are fake``. We do need logical answers.Books are not very reliable, and not everything is recorded. This scrap silver is important for research purposes with the simple question; why should one bother to fake cheap demitasse spoons ended up as scrap metal? Furthermore, if one decided to make a fake punch, what was the idea of making the mark in cursive letters, never seen before, not easily legible by those not familiar with Russian alphabet, if for that fact only it would be very suspicious? And then he marks scrap silver with it? In a word,finding Sazikov mark in cursive on scrap silver may be a valuable find.
dad is the closest to the source. Enlighten us, please, we trust in your opinion;have you seen Sazikov in cursive?

[Zolotnik]

Hi all -
the shown fake mark of Sazikov is still sometimes seen - though it is an old one from the early fake years. Interesting not only with the Court jeweler´s eagle but also with a goldmedal for some exhibition. Very funny but total phantasy and wrong. No real existing objects in major collections or museums nore publications exist. Last year was a large discussion about a cigarre box going on here on the forum - result: 98 % fake - 2% authentic (as always).

Why is a cheap spoon faked?
1) The punch is at hand - so why not use it on an available spoon instead on an object someone with some knowledge and experience had to made new (for some money!).
2) The spoon is at least one time sold (I believe more often) for more than it was worth.
3) After some time (even ignorants know now that it is a "non-existing " mark) it ends in the waste bin for melting silver.
4) Someone "rescue" the treasures - but do not know what he have - that´s like lottery. Sometimes you win - sometimes you loose.....

Regards and happy hunting
Zolotnik

[Zolotnik]

Hi all -

here is the thread I mentioned: viewtopic.php?f=46&t=16998 - as I wrote: from the beginning of faking....

[dognose]

Here is a post that relates to this topic:

viewtopic.php?f=61&t=22389

Trev.

[Qrt.S]

Never seen in any source Sazikov's mark punched in italics. Read the thread Zolotnik refers to viewtopic.php?f=46&t=16998"

[AG2012]

``Fantasy mark of some exhibition``

Exhibiting Russia at the world's fairs, 1851-1900
David Carlton Fisher
Indiana University

So, what did we find out? Most important Russian silversmiths attended world fairs, had some fun, got drunk, probably visited a brothel or two, gambled a bit, won medals, did not sign any contract, did not sell anything ,did not export anything and collected their excellent silver and got back to Mother Russia. Everything was fine. Then a faker found out there was a Queen Victoria and Prince Albert medal, faked it and punched it to silver. The silversmiths did not care to have one on their silver; why should they bother with the most important trade exhibitions in 19th century?

[Zolotnik]

Hi AG2012 -

everybody interested in Russian silver know, that Sazikov, Ovtschinnikov, Khlebnikov and Klingert participated at international fairs - with tremendous success - because what they showed was real something new and never seen before. One must not invent the wheel anew every time - some solid knowledge should be assumed! It is left to the reader of this forum to form his own opinion - after he knows all the facts. There will be always someone who know the object is authentic....I am sure the OP would be glad to sell it - in spite of the extra medal punch Sazikov was so very proud of that he punched it even on plain spoons.....

Regards
Zolotnik

[AG2012]

Then I missed something or misunderstood with ``some exhibition`` and it was actually World Fair in London.So,Sazikov DID have Prince Albert and Queen Victoria mark,right? If so, the question is if genuine or fake.There are huge catalogs of World fair in 1851 with more than 500 participants from Russia (every field from grain to chemical products, machines, instruments and including silver)they DID trade with the West and on the large scale.Russia was not closed.

[Qrt.S]

It is a known fact that Sazikov won a gold medal in the World fair in London in 1851. It shows the profile of queen Victoria and prince Albert. However, what is completely unclear is that did they punch the medal mark on their silver. To my understanding they didn't and they did not either punch a maker's mark in script/italic. That is the problem here. But please correct me if I'm wrong. The shown mark is more than dubious.