Crackdown In Moscow - 1890

[dognose]

Hi Guys,

Apologies for posting this question in this forum, as strictly speaking this is not a question regarding hallmarks as such, but as this forum has been quieter than usual just lately, I thought it a good opportunity for some debate.

We are often advised in answers to questions on Russian hallmarking, that such and such is not possible in Russia due to the strictness of hallmarking laws, that there is no way an article could have sold in Russia without genuine marks, etc, etc.

I came across this snippet of information regarding a crackdown by the Russian authorities on jewellers at Moscow in 1890. It certainly would appear from the content of the article, that there were periods of time, in this case 1890, that perhaps things had become a little lax.

RUSSIAN JEWELLERY "REVISION" - In Moscow lately there has been a revision of all the jewellers' shops by a Government Commission, and some of the jewellers have come heavily to grief. One firm is said, according to a contemporary, to have had no less than 80,000 roubles' worth of jewels confiscated and destroyed. This firm, named Nemirow-Kolotkin, have appealed to the Commission to at least return them the precious stones with which the jewellery was embellished, but have as yet received no reply. In many large shops much jewellery in gold and silver work has been made useless, another firm having had 1,000 roubles' worth destroyed. Much of this had no proof stamp upon it. In some cases deception had been practised; in making up the articles it was found the precious metal's weakness had been made up inside with lead. The Commission promises to continue its work, and to "revise" the stocks of the hawkers at the coming fair. Altogether the goldsmiths of Moscow seem to be having an interesting time.

Source: The Watchmaker, Jeweller, and Silversmith - 1st August 1890

Although the crackdown shows that the authorities were indeed strict in the adherence of the law at the time of the raids, such a situation that had developed beforehand would not have occurred overnight, and perhaps was the result of years of tardiness by the authorities.

So, were things as strict in Russia as we have led to believe? Perhaps some of the items that have appeared on this forum that have been dismissed as modern fakes, perhaps have origins in a more contemporary period?

Trev.

[Zolotnik]

Hi -
never heared of this case (concerning jewellers - not silversmiths)- know only that some "famous and wellknown" jewellers sold some of their custom made objects without assay marks. That some firms cheated is only human - especially non-Russian firms. What was sold officially was "kosher" :-)....

Regards
Zolotnik

[dognose]

Hi Zolotnik,

It would appear that this may be the silversmith NIcholai Nemirov-Kolodkin.

Regards Trev.

[AG2012]

Trev has already pointed out in another topic silversmiths avoided legislation in Great Britain. Besides, ``duty dodgers`` are well known to all of us. If that happened in UK, how can we believe beyond a reasonable doubt it was possible to enforce legislation in Russia? The country has always been chaotic, more or less.This is just another documented proof.
Another point regarding Russian marks; anti-Bolsheviks DID take most of stamping tools with them when leaving Russia.Undisputed marks on whatever needed.
Something else is often neglected;there was substantial international trade at the time, including silver.And many items were made to conform to the taste of buyers outside Russia.

[Qrt.S]

Interesting document presented by dognose, thank you. However, nothing is ever water proof in any country not even in imperial Russia. But as you can see from the document the crooks were caught as many other crooks were too and sent to Siberia without pardon. My opinion is that we shall irrespectively of this document still stick to the fact that the assay charters and law were obeyed in Russia even if some side steps were made now and then but with known results. Please also note the the problem seems concerns more jewelers than silversmiths. Silversmiths are not mentioned. There is a slight difference here.

What Zolotnik stated is a fact but finding such unassayed object today is not happening often. Such objects were mostly made for the court or made on private orders and not sold on the open market.

To AG2012.

Do you really think that the refuges who fled the revolution had as a first thing on their mind to take with them silver punches !!!??? By a coincident I happen to know that that was not the case. You see my grand grand parents fled to Finland and had practically nothing but their life with them. I strongly suggest that you revise your statement regarding the punches.

[dognose]

Hi Qrt.S,

Thank you for your thoughts. Regarding Nemirov-Kolodkin, just about all items that I have found so far connected with this name, appear to be silverware, and he described as silversmith, indeed, a search of this forum reveals his name connected with nothing but silverware (remember that fine cigarette case with tinder cord posted by Postnikov?). From this report, and the amount of money involved, he must have been a big operator in Moscow at that time, big enough that this setback did not put him out of business.

Now, the issue over the possibility of stolen punches, whilst I appreciate what you say, all I can say is that if I was fleeing a crumbling country, and about to enter an entirely different world of which I would probably know nothing about, my only thoughts and fears would be how to feed and protect my family, my morals, I'm sure, would be likely to go out of the window. I guess none of us know how we would react unless we were actually in that situation, but I suspect that if I had access to the punches and thought that they may be the key to saving my family, then I would, without doubt, pocket them. But indeed there may have another reason why they may have removed. I remember seeing images of Prince Bernhard arriving at Harwich in 1940 carrying the Dutch banknote printing plates under his arm. Perhaps someone removed those punches for protection, but for whatever reason, they fell into the hands of others. It all speculation of course.

Regards, Trev.

[Qrt.S]

Hi Trev,

Yes it is correct that the Nemirov-Kolodkin company was one of the bigger factors in Russia regarding silverware. Right now I have not access to my library. Later I can revert to this case and tell you more about them if you are interested.

But about the punches. Yes it is pure speculations but I have difficulties in imagining that somebody would see any value in the punches because if a person had access to the punches, which were kept in the vault, it is to anticipate that in the same vault was kept the raw material i.e. the valuable metals. In such a case why take the punches instead of the e.g. pure gold? You had to carry it all....
I have a dim memory of reading somewhere that the Bolsheviks tried to misuse some found/confiscated punches and also that they tried to make some money of them or ??? I'm not sure...maybe somebody knows more. Let's wait and see...But as said speculations, speculations and also out of topic, sorry.
Have a nice evening

Qrt.S

[AG2012]

``Do you really think that the refuges who fled the revolution had as a first thing on their mind to take with them silver punches !!!???``

Was not talking about refugees but more or less organized evacuation during the war that lasted for years.It is amazing what Wrangel (or Vrangel) left in his documents;economical issues being very important.Anti-Bolsheviks did not depend only on assets in foreign banks.What may be interesting here, several pawnshops (lombards) were evacuated,too. It was a huge,long and painful change.

[Zolotnik]

Hi all -

some remarks to the theme:
Russian Silver (enamel, Niello etc) was something typical Russian and not very well known in the West and mostly seen as souvenirs. After the exhibitions in USA and France customers who had everything started to be interested. Cartier, Boucheron and Tiffany tried to make business with Russian silver - but no big success. The shops of Cartier and Boucheron in St. Petersburg were closed very soon, Tiffany stoped selling - even Fabergé in London had no big success and closed. The tastes where too different. The Russians did not like the European taste of this firms, the Europeans did not like the Russian taste very much (I am simplyfying). With other words: Russian objects were nice, some liked them, many not - very normal. When the Revolution came, many nobles fled, mostly taking only some personal posessions (cane, cigarette box, jewels) with them - to save their life. Many went via Finnland and Sweden to Paris, selling there their few belongings to get some money. Paris jewellers and pawn shops were full of this things nobody wanted to buy - after a certain time they refused to buy objects nobody was interested in (WW I was going on, economic problems were coming etc.). I know some outstanding colletions which were built in the years
1917 - 1922 from this material nobody wanted for little money by people with a sense.
Today some persons want to tell us storys (like: my grandmother had to leave Russia over night and could take only her 12 pieces Tea service in mint condition with her... etc.) the refugees could only save their silver or took the punches with them, which they intended to use 85 years later. The forum is full of this storys and you do not believe what you see or read. What a nonsense! The auctions are full of brand new material in 84 ZOLOTNIKOFF SILVER! All the selfmade experts attest at once: authentic.
I have no pity with the fools inside and outside! Every trash is saleable.

Regards
Zolotnik

[AG2012]

The fact:
The Russian Revolution of 1917 caused approximately 1.5 million Russians who opposed communism to flee. If only one in a hundred had something in his pocket (cigarette case) or in her purse (jewelry) it is 15 000 items.

[Zolotnik]

Hi AG2012 -

maybe you can not or will not understand: since 20 years every day are sold more than 15 000 items (authentic of course)! Not to mention the stocks in countless private and public collections....All from refugees? 1.5 million opponents? Who are the 50 millions dead (GULAG etc.) when 1.5 millions already reached the secure foreign countries? As I already stated: pure nonsense for the clueless. Read the forum! You are one of the "experts" who accept everything that is coming along. Not very helpful!

Regards
Zolotnik

[AG2012]

The Global Refugee and Internally Displaced Persons Situtation
By Matt Rosenberg
History of Major Refugee Movements
``Major geopolitical transitions have caused some of the largest refugee migrations in the twentieth century.The Russian Revolution of 1917 caused approximately 1.5 million Russians who opposed communism to flee.``
Reference (the link):
http://geography.about.com/od/globalpro ... fugees.htm


Now back to the post where all this actually started:
`` Help Russian marks cigarette case``

My comment:
1. There are more different sizes of Russian cigarette cases than shown in drawings submitted.

Your answer:
1) show the missing sizes...


Postnikov`s article `` THE RUSSIAN CIGARETTE CASE: FROM FABERGE TO GULAG`` was not given, though. And his drawing had a pretext:
``Here are the usual measures and forms``

In short, THERE WERE MORE DIFFERENT SIZES OF CIGARETTE CASES.
Here is the link — but it was you to give it.

http://www.ascasonline.org/windowsettem76.html

No hard feelings, although we do not know each I am sure both of us are benevolent.
Regards

[Zolotnik]

Hi AG2012 -

my intention is not to fight or knowing everything better - I only want to correct some nonsense which is written somewhere and repeated and repeated until everybody believe it is true.

Major geopolitical transitions have caused some of the largest refugee migrations in the twentieth century.The Russian Revolution of 1917 caused approximately 1.5 million Russians who opposed communism to flee.``M. Rosenberg

What about the real large refugee migrations after WW II? 1.5 millions is nothing...

Postnikov is one of my pseudos...so the sketch is from me...and one of my hobbys since over 20 years is collecting Russian cigarette cases. I own every type and model in several pattern from all major makers (some 350 objects)- the given measures are what I found out (Soviet cigarette cases have other measures). I am always interested to learn something new - if you have a Russian cigarette case which do not fit in my list - I would be very happy to see or own it! :-)

I am absolute sure that you are a benevolent person who can give valuable informations - my apologies if my bad English sound sometimes blunt or unpolite!

Regards
Zolotnik

[AG2012]

Oh, my God I am so glad it is you! On the other hand I should have known, and actually I suspected. I feel better now; somehow I felt an injustice was done to Postnikov`s research.
You are so right about sources, particularly now with the plethora of information and links for everything — too many are not reliable.
Actually, there are two cigarette cases here 12 cm long; not important, though. One is plain, made by ``ADAMЗ``, Moscow, the other with the Russian hats and ``samorodnoe`` back has been posted here under ``OLD RUSSIAN — SLAVIC HATS? `` in ``General questions``. I am just curious. But 1 cm does not mean much, does it?
Kindest regards