Help needed with Russian mark

[jackk]

Can anyone help me identifying this Russian hallmark? I tend to attribute this to Hrodna or Vilnus, but I am not 100% sure about this.

Thanks!
Jack

[Qrt.S]

The mid mark is a very "strange" hallmark. It has some similarities with Vilnius town mark showing Vytis, the white knight of Lithuania, but that's about all. There are only two towns in Russia whose crest has a rider, Moscow and Vilnius. It is not Moscow.... but Vilnius,...? However, the the mark is not either a standard Russian town mark (never seen it before). If it would be Vilnius mark, I'm still unable to identify the maker. Kindly tell us what is the name in the mark to the left ? In addition, there is no year mark. I must say I'm very doubtful...VERY!

Could you show the whole object please.

[jackk]

Qrt.S, I share your concerns when it comes to Russian silver forgeries and am always very careful when making a purchase decision. However, in this case the item is at least mid. 19th century item, but the marks...well, there may be different opinion about them. I think they look good, but I don't deny that can be mistaken.

I hope that the item came from Grodno region (Grodnenskaya Gubernia), where there was a rider on a horse and a bull used for coat of arms. I am not very familiar with the history of the region or scarce silver from there and I hope that someone can shed more lights on it for me. See link below for grodno province coat of arms.

http://www.wdl.org/en/item/4490/

[jackk]

and one more:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... D1%8F_(XIX).jpg

[Dad]

Hi, jackk.

It's may be))
On a item there are no punches of the assaymaster?
For example, The coat of arms of the Grodno province (1802-1878) and punches of Grodno assaymaster Lavrentiy Balabanov (1855):



Best Reg.

[jackk]

Thanks Dad!

There is no assay master mark on my item, just city mark, silversmith, and 84.

[Qrt.S]

And why is there no assayer's mark, and why is there no year mark, and why does the town mark look strange? I assume you read these Russian sites. So how often have you seen Russian objects shown here with only maker's marks but no hallmarks? In order to solve this mystery, I kindly ask you again, what is the name of the maker in the mark to the left? Kindly remember that it was forbidden to sell silver in Imperial Russia without having it hallmarked first.

[dognose]

Hi All,

Just wondering, was there ever a period during the 19th century when Grodno was not under Russian control?

Trev.

[Qrt.S]

Not to my understanding but before the third split of Poland 1795 when Poland ceased to exist. Grodno was i Poland. Poland was split between Prussia, Russia and Austro-Hungaria. However, the shown marks refer to 19th century. During the whole 19th century Grodno was a part of Imperial Russia. Belarus became independent in 1919.

[jackk]

According to information I found on the web, the city was occupied by French/Polish soldiers (under Hieronim Bonaparte) in 1812 from June 2nd to December 8th. I think it is safe to assume a lot of Russian regulations were ignored at the time. Also, Russification of the city was not really started until 1830. However, I do not know if this included silver hall marking standards.

I will do some more digging once I get back home.

[Zolotnik]

Hi jackk -

The displayed marks are very different from the known authentic hallmarks - furthermore the missing assaymaster mark makes the whole case very dubious.

Regards
Zolotnik

[jackk]

I have a book at home for Lithuanian silver. There are few examples of hallmarks without assayer mark (just 84, maker's mark, and a city mark).
I used to have two pieces of Polish silver, which were produced before 1851 (silversmith died before 1851), but were counter-marked with "84" on top of "12". Parts of "12" were still visible from under the "84". They did not have an assayer mark either. Just maker's mark, city mark, and 84. (as a note, Poland was forced to use "84" marks after 1851).
Also, I have not seen many examples of Grodno Province marks. In fact, I saw only one posted on this thread. Can someone please upload more examples, especially from before 1850s.

I will try to read the maker's mark once I have an access to the item again.

Thank you all for contributing.

Jack

[Zolotnik]

Hi jackk -

with all respect:
it is not interesting what books you have at home or what marks there are shown or whatever you have once had. What is important are facts = photos of the marks and objects. Than one can see if the marks are genuin or false. If you have no access to the item we speak of - forget the whole discussion. On this forum are enough knowing members who can decide between Russian, Lithuanian and Poland silver marks and the different years under Russian rule with ease!
Show what you really have , make some clear photos of the marks and the object - and we will see what you have.

Regards
Zolotnik

[jackk]

Zolotnik, I tend to disagree with your post. It is very important, what's in the book about Lithuanian silver. If there are examples of Russian silver hallmarks without the assayer mark and year, than this is a clear indication that those hallmarks existed. They are in the book! (Lietuvos Auksakalyste, XV-XIX amzius). How many books about Russian silver have you published?

The fact is, that the hallmarks I posted are different from the ones we have seen so far (I saw only one example). And this is the only fact here!

All that aside, I do not care much if the hallmarks are authentic or not. All I care about is the pseudo-scientific method employed here. If we are to declare something as fake, we should have an array of examples proving it as not authentic. This is easy with Moscow, Warsaw, or St. Petersburg hallmarks, which are plenty to compare to. Before I make any statement as to the authenticity of the hallmarks (I have no doubts about the item), I will need to see examples of Grodno province marks covering the period from early XIX to late XIX century.

[Qrt.S]

Yes you will find marks without hallmarks but you will also find that the fineness is expressed in loths and usually as 12 but also as 13. You will also find that the maker's mark is in Latin letters. Then you will (perhaps) find 1 or 2 masters with maker's initials in Cyrillic letters and fineness in 84 zolotniks and no hallmark. What you will not find is the town mark you have showed in this thread in connection with the 84. Are the masters you might find from Grodno, is another question, probably they are from Vilnius.

The fineness expressed in zolotniks (84) starts to appear around 1830 and first in connection to objects made in Warsaw.
Grodno/Gardinas is not particularly known for its silver. The only Grodno town mark I'm aware of is the mark showed by Dad earlier. Please note that the year is marked on it. This town mark was used in mid 19th century. The older town mark shows a deer running to the left but it is from the 18th century. The first assayer in Grodno was Ivan Mihoelis/Jonas Kristijonas Michaelis 1821-1828. His mark is not known. The last one is the already mentioned Balabanov.
Sorry but I have a suspicious mind...

I'm waiting with great interest for the masters name.

[Zolotnik]

Hi jackk -

All that aside, I do not care much if the hallmarks are authentic or not. All I care about is the pseudo-scientific method employed here.

Than you are the only one interested in this nonsense!

How many books about Russian silver have you published?

There are several...





Regards
Zolotnik

[jackk]

Thanks Zolotnik, please supply an outlet where I can purchase these. I would love to have these in my library.

[dognose]

While we await some more information from Jack, can I throw another possibility for these marks into the ring.

From what I have read about Grodno in the 19th century is that it was an impoverished community with a very large Jewish population. From what I have read in the past is that Jewish silversmiths is that they often worked outside of the accepted circles of hallmarking regulations and guilds. They were part of a tight knit community who only worked for, and dealt with their own people. Often working on an order basis only, these silversmiths did not carry stock, and had no fear of outside interference, their business was done on a one to one basis with trusted customers only. Their output was not officially marked by the authorities, as they felt no need involve outsiders, and to pay out extra taxes and assay fees. They used their own marks, and the trust in the quality of the silver and the product itself, was maintained by the relationships in these small circles.

What we see on Jack's piece, is a silversmith's mark, a town mark, and a quality mark, perhaps nothing official, but perhaps quite acceptable to to a certain community in a very poor town. Such examples can be found, I'm sure from all over Europe. In Scotland, for example, it was not until around 1850 that provincial silversmiths were brought into line with their city-dwelling counterparts, even though strict laws regarding hallmarking had been in place for many years, as they were also in the Russian territories.

Unofficial marking such as that occured in Scotland, is completely acceptable to the collector of silver, why should this be different for other countries. Is it correct to assume that every piece of silver that bears marks that do not fit in with the known official marks, should be dismissed as nothing but a fake? Surely not.

Trev.

[Qrt.S]

Unofficial marking such as that occured in Scotland, is completely acceptable to the collector of silver, why should this be different for other countries. Is it correct to assume that every piece of silver that bears marks that do not fit in with the known official marks, should be dismissed as nothing but a fake? Surely not.

Trev.

NO, NO and NO! If we accept your statement above dear Trev. it would mean that whatever marks on whatever object not fitting into official known standards and/or marking systems would be explained as exceptional marks used by this and that (possibly closed) community here and there who didn't care about the local legislation. That would ruin the whole worldwide official silver marking system. What you wrote above cannot be applied on Imperial Russian silver marks, so forget it at once. The Russian legislation did not permit it. Factum est: No marks or incorrect marks, not silver! This last statement is valid to 99%.

[Zolotnik]

Hi all -

I can understand that there are people who collect "unofficial marked silver" from around the world - but the rest of the world know that there is a big difference between unofficial (illegal) and official (legal) silver.
As a German I am the wrong person to explain the different kinds of business practices (quote dognose: ...outside of the accepted circles of hallmarking regulations...) of the Jewish silversmiths in Grodno, Poland and elsewhere.

Regards
Zolotnik