Help with markings please

[mariok]

Hi,

This is another piece that I would greatly appreciate any help with. I have done a little bit of research on it, and (if it is genuine) I think it might be by Ivan Fedorovich Andreev, but that is all that I can discover.

When I bought it, the seller said that it was a tea-strainer, but I'm not sure whether it is or maybe a sugar sifter? It is 14.5 cm in length and the bowl, which is gilt, is 4.5 cm wide.

I apologise for the quality of the photos, but I did try to get as good a shot of the marks as I possibly could.

Many thanks

Mario

http://imageshack.us/g/16/dsc03062vw.jpg/

[Qrt.S]

Compared with some other photos seen here yours are good, no problem. Nonetheless, sometimes it is difficult to separate tea strainers from sugar sifters. I would say that this is a tea strainer. The holes in a sugar sifter are usually saw not drilled like in this one. The Strainer is made in Moscow 1899-1908 and hallmarked by assayer Ivan Lebedkin (1898-1914). The master you mentioned is correct. The strainer is later, 1927-1940, marked with Latvia's import mark for silver, a left- oval with a right-cut-end shoving Milda looking left and the silver fineness 875/1000 (84 zolotnik). I don't see any reason to doubt its authenticity.

[mariok]

Hi Qrt.s

Many thanks for your help with this one, and for the vote of confidence on its authenticity. But I'm a little confused by your comment:

The Strainer is made in Moscow 1899-1908 and hallmarked by assayer Ivan Lebedkin (1898-1914). The master you mentioned is correct. The strainer is later, 1927-1940, marked with Latvia's import mark for silver, a left- oval with a right-cut-end shoving Milda looking left and the silver fineness 875/1000 (84 zolotnik).

You say that the strainer was probably made between 1899 - 1908 (I was thinking from the engraving that it was turn of the century), but I don't understand the 1927 - 1940 reference.

Please forgive my ignorance on this.

Kindest Regards

Mario

[Qrt.S]

No problem, you cannot know it all :-)))

Firstly, it was only an explanation to the mark to the right. It has nothing to do with Russia. It is Latvia's import mark showing that some time between 1927-1940 the strainer was exported from the Soviet Union and imported to the first republic of Latvia. It is a part of the strainers provenience.

Secondly, I did not say probably made. I said made as it is too.

[mariok]

Hi Qrt.S,

Many thanks for making that clear ... I am now much the wiser ... and apologies for misquoting you ...

As you say, it adds to the provenance ... and it makes me wonder why there was such a long gap between being made and exported.


Kindest Regards

Mario

[Qrt.S]

Don't wonder there is an explanation.

You see the strainer was made in Imperial Russia that ceased to exist in 1917. In 1922 the Soviet Union was "born". The new country ruled by the communist was in a deep need of of foreign currency, which was needed to buy food from abroad to the starving population. At that time it was a great famine in Soviet due to stupid actions and people died like flies (a long story...). The government had to sell whatever they could to feed the people avoiding a new revolution. Parts of the imperial treasures like other objects in gold and silver and jewellery was sold abroad, an action deeply regretted by the current Russians today. Your strainer is probably such a sold object or it is brought by Russian fugitives/emigrants to Latvia and legally marked by the customs in Latvia.

[mariok]

Thank you Qrt.S ... I think that in my situation it was a case of typing before thinking. I should have made that connection. As you say, hard times, which adds poignancy to these little items ... explains why today's Russians and ex-Soviets would like them back ... and unfortunately explains why they are so frequently faked.

Kindest Regards

Mario

[Qrt.S]

On the nail Mario, on the nail. Such things were considered by the Soviets as capitalistic junk and could be sold and it was but as I said, today deeply regretted.

[mariok]

Hi Qtr.S

Sorry for being such a pain ... but I have always had a thirst for knowledge. Since you identified the Assayer for me I located this on the silver collection hallmarks website

....http://www.silvercollection.it/3russian ... markB.html


Moskow 1899-1908 (P-L # 3878)
silversmith Ivan Fedorovich Andreev
(Postnikova-Loseva #2529)
assayer Ivana Sergeevicha Lebedkina
(Postnikova-Loseva #3878)


Do you know if Ivan and Ivana were related?

Kindest Regards

Mario

[Zolotnik]

Hi mariok -
just 3 little notes:

1) what Qrt.S told you about the Latvian importmark and the Communistic "sales" is correct - but there is another reason for the import mark possible: most of the Baltic people (Latvia is one of the 3 Baltic States) were very happy to have an own state after many years of Russian domination. They just wanted to show that even on their silver....
2) When you read/translate: Ivana Sergejevicha Lebedkina than this is no feminine assayer - it has to do with Russian grammar! It is Ivan S. Lebedkin!
3) The difference between a tea strainer and a sugar sifter are the holes. Small holes: sugar sifter, big holes: tea strainer. Reason: surface tension of liquids. Physics....
Sugar is dry - tea is wet. Got it?

Regards
Zolotnik

[Qrt.S]

Dear Mario, what you wrote in your last input reveals to me that your skills in the Russian language are rather limited. The assayer is Ivan Sergejevitsh Lebedkin. What is said in #3878 is about this: "Mark of the Moscow district regional assay office with the initials of Ivan Sergejevitsh Lebedkin i.e. Ivan Lebedkin'S mark. What I'm saying is that is is a common misunderstanding that always when a Russian name ends with the letter a it is a female name. It is partly true but it has another meaning too. The letter A in the end of a Russian name also express the owner in other words it is the suffix for Genitive form. It is the one and same person in #2529 and #3878. What has changed is the hallmark only.
You are not the first to fall into this trap. As an example; if I like to say Mario's mark in Russian it would be "Kleim Marioa". So Kleim Ivana means simply Ivan's mark. In Russian the suffix is added to the whole name i.e. Ivana Sergejevitsha Lebedkina....got it?

OK Mario, now I'm teaching you Russian and that is out of topic, sorry I must stop now. If you need more information send me a PM.

[mariok]

Thank you both very much ... I am the first to acknowledge my ignorance, and I am not only learning about Russian silver, but also about Russian grammar, and the difference between a sifter and a strainer ... once learnt it will stay with me for a long time!

It may originally have been intended to be a strainer ... but it is now a sugar sifter .. as of this lunchtime when we had our strawberries !! And they were very nice, even though from Morocco!

Kindest Regards

Mario

[Qrt.S]

Some minor comments and amendments:

1. Zolotnik's addition is correct

2. Zolotnik made an input while I was writing but the explanation is the same. Score Zolotnik versus Qrt.S 1-0

3.Sorry my good man but the difference is not quite that simple. I'm collecting strainers and sifters and have about 50 of each in my collections. The picture below will show the difference. Upper row strainers, lower row sifters. Pay attentions to the shape of the holes and especially the holes on the sifter to the right in the lower row. It has round holes but it is still a sifter because the holes are rather big. Compare these holes with the small holes in the strainers. Another thing is that a tea strainer can have a short handle/grip on the opposite side of the long handle irrespective of what kind of holes it has. It is still a strainer. Look at the strainer in the middle. Score Zolotnik versus Qrt.S 1-1 :-)))))))
Mario, I'm not finnished yet....

[Zolotnik]

Hi all -
for me it is very simple (I am more the house wife here...): however you call it or how short the handle is - if the tea is not running through - it is no strainer - it is only a pain in the aXX!

Regards
Zolotnik