Khlebnikov, real or not.

[R ingo]

Hello,
I have searched in the forum about Khlebnikov and found only very elaborated and expensive works from famous Ivan Khlebnikov. So I wonder about the very unostentatious and simple design of my spoon.
The marks look real to me, but I am no expert and I have seen, that Khlebnikov`s mark not seldom was faked.

So I would be interested, if this mark is real or not.

Kind regards,
Ringo

[Zolotnik]

Hi Ringo -

the firm of Khlebnikov was not only known for the famous silver/enamel objects but also for the "bread and butter" wares. Here a page of the catalogue with your spoon:



The mark on your spoon looks a bit too crude for my taste - one has to look at it in person...photos are often misleading.
Some authentic marks from my collection - please compare:







Regards
Zolotnik

[Qrt.S]

The the whole row of marks look rather "smudgy" to me too. I good cooperation with a friend of mine we have "established" a kind of a rule. If there is a court supplier mark on the object. Investigate it very carefully. It should be a good punch a good mark with all details clearly visible. The court supplier mark is rather difficult to counterfeit and therefore counterfeiters very often make the mark unclear and smudgy like in this case. Summa summarum, a lousy court supplier mark is a red flag.

[Zolotnik]

Hi Qrt.S -

thank you very much for disparage my shown marks. Maybe the friend of you, with whom you established the "supplier rule" can show some original marks plus the objects (I am not interested in photos from books or the Internet) which have passed his critical eyes! Of course I would be interested in your marks too.
I just point out that some ojects have a certain grain on the surface where the marks will be punched - the marks are not punched on the "show side" - only faker do that. You can see that grain on my photos. As the punches are only several mm long/high or in diametre, the resolution is not always the best. There is of course a big difference between a grainy resolution and a faked pseudo mark. For better understanding some photos of marks blown up and original size:










And here some objects:





Regards
Zolotnik

[Qrt.S]

I was not referring to your marks dear Zolotnik but to the original picture in the first input.

[Zolotnik]

Thank God!

[Qrt.S]

No problem my good man, you are welcome!

[R ingo]

Hello Zolotnik and Qrt.S,
I thank you for your answers.
If it is a counterfeit, I have no problem with this fact. But I would be interested, when such things were counterfeited. The mark is not new and I am sure, that it is no modern fake (I bought it in a worn state for some Euro).
If you are interested, I have made a better Photo of the mark.

Thanks and kind regards,
Ringo

[Zolotnik]

Hi Ringo -
in my opinion is the spoon and the Kokoshnik mark authentic, the original maker was overstruck with the Khlebnikov mark, which is too crude to be authentic. By the way - not only is each letter in a different angel, the Court supplier mark is with the letters connected. That is wrong: either always left or in the middle but separate! See the given examples.

Next time you know and watch closer.....Lehrgeld!! :-)

Regards
Zolotnik

[R ingo]

Hello Zolotnik,
I am sure, you are right.
I would be interested, when and where were this counterfeits made? It is hardly to understand why modern counterfeiters fake a simple teaspoon.
Relating to the argument, the original makers mark was overstruckted, I am not sure (In my experience Re-/ over- marking is quite difficult. I have seen a lot of this and wrote sometimes in the forum about it).
I am inquisitively .
Kind regards,
Ringo

[Zolotnik]

Hi Ringo -
here is what I know or learned by experience:

After Russian silver started to be desirable and achived high prices, "some" people started to faricate fakes. There are several kinds of fakes but the most common are:
1) "Upgrade fakes" = original Russian objects get some new marks of wellknown masters (Khlebnikov, Ovtschinnikov, Sazikov, Fabergé etc.) or European silver (German, French, Austo-Hungarian etc.) get complete new Russian marks. This fakes are easy to detect because the quality of the marks is often poor and lack the knowledge of how authentic marks look or where they must be placed (your spoon is a typical example). From eastern Europe - since the downfall of the USSR
2) "New phantasy fakes" = Total newly made objects without historic background, looking like expensive objects from famous masters. This fakes are easy to detect because the quality of the marks and the object is often poor and lack the knowledge of how authentic marks must be placed or the work of famous smiths look. From eastern Europe - since the downfall of the USSR
3) "Chinese idustrialy produced fakes" = mostly enamel of all kinds but also plane silver spoons etc. The enamel is of high quality and mostly in the correct pattern. There are several ways to detect this fakes - but this is not the place to reveal how! From China - since 10 years growing and growing - not only Russian silver/enamel, also European silver!


If you know what you are doing and did your homework you see on first glance what it is. If you are unsure or a beginner - do not buy Russian silver until you have some experience. Start slow and inexpensive! We all made our mistakes - but somehow it helped to became a better collector.....:-)

If you are an unknowing novice and buy as investment you get what you deserve. A fool and his money are instantly parted!

Regards
Zolotnik

[R ingo]

Hello Zolotnik,
excuse me for my late answer. I thank you for your helpfull advises.

I am no collector of russian silver. The some russian spoons I have, I have bought mostly on flea markets for less than the aktual silver price and mostly in a used (sometimes worn) state. So I wonder, that the spoons should be modern fakes

viewtopic.php?f=46&t=23020&p=55566#p55566
viewtopic.php?t=24244
viewtopic.php?f=46&t=23087&p=55911#p55911

I thank the experts and accept their decision and I am not worry about it.

Excuse my persistence, but I ask me, if it is possible, that there were also earlier faking periods (probably made in the troubles of the revolution or for russian emigrants, or for Russians in the Baltik states).
It is only a thought experiment ( probably it is wrong, but I am nosey and I got no better explanation).

Kind regards,
Ringo

[Zolotnik]

Hi Ringo -

the pest with the fakes started after the Revolution - a certain Mr. Hammer and his friends made the first Russian fakes - there is an article about him on this forum. But his fakes were expensive objects like presentation Easter eggs etc. The "normal", kitchen made fakes, like spoons and cigarette cases started after the downfall of the Soviet Union; in the years before it was impossible to get Russian silver. There existed only the silver which was brought out of Russia before or after 1917 - more souvenirs than something to collect. The hype started with the exhibitions of Fabergé´s work in USA and Europe and continued after one could travel freely to and in Russia. Big Russian sales at Sothebys etc. promoted the beauty of Russian silver further - prices started to go up extreme. Now the fakers woke up....first from eastern Europe, now from Asia.
When you buy today a spoon, faked 25 years ago, sold numerous times - it is nealy antique...You ask, where is the profit? At that time you did not buy one spoon for 10.00 $ - you bought a whole plastic bag with 50-60 spoons for 10.00 $! Went home in your kitchen and fabricated "famous" spoons - selling them for 10.00 $ each. Big profit in Poland or Rumania at that time! Today a normal silver spoon in fiddle pattern starts at 100.00 $...enamel you can´t afford!
Even I have sometimes big problems to avoid fakes! The only medicine against fakes is knowledge - know your marks and the history.

Regards
Zolotnik

[dognose]

1) "Upgrade fakes" = original Russian objects get some new marks of wellknown masters (Khlebnikov, Ovtschinnikov, Sazikov, Fabergé etc.) or European silver (German, French, Austo-Hungarian etc.) get complete new Russian marks. This fakes are easy to detect because the quality of the marks is often poor and lack the knowledge of how authentic marks look or where they must be placed (your spoon is a typical example). From eastern Europe - since the downfall of the USSR
2) "New phantasy fakes" = Total newly made objects without historic background, looking like expensive objects from famous masters. This fakes are easy to detect because the quality of the marks and the object is often poor and lack the knowledge of how authentic marks must be placed or the work of famous smiths look. From eastern Europe - since the downfall of the USSR
3) "Chinese idustrialy produced fakes" = mostly enamel of all kinds but also plane silver spoons etc. The enamel is of high quality and mostly in the correct pattern. There are several ways to detect this fakes - but this is not the place to reveal how! From China - since 10 years growing and growing - not only Russian silver/enamel, also European silver!

4) "Official Fakes"?

Below is an interesting advertisement from 1884. It states that official copies of certain items were made, but the top line of the advertisement reveals exactly just who the book was aimed at, and also perhaps an indication of how old some copies can be.



Trev.

[Zolotnik]

Hi all -
thanks dognose to provide this long forgotten book. But one should distinguish between anonym Fakes (meant to cheat the buyer) and legal Museums copies (meant to give the public an impression and the opportunity to see some very rare or typical objects in person). If this copies were always handeled with care or later misused is another thing - but at least they never were made of precious metal or with precious stones - hard to sell them as originals. Just "worthless" lookalikes.

Regards
Zolotnik