Khlebnikov? Real or Fake ?New Posting With Images

[savolax]

Hi my grandmother from Manhattan N.Y. gave me this piece from her estate she collected her whole life and passed away at the age of 92. She collected Russian silver mostly. I think it is a Russian export piece but can find nothing about the stamp. Does anyone know what these stamps are the number 4 and Khlebnikov? What year it could be?

[Zolotnik]

Hi savolax -
as you already supposed - it is a fake.

Regards
Zolotnik

[savolax]

Hi savolax -
as you already supposed - it is a fake.

Regards
Zolotnik

How can you tell it is not authentic? Other than the non serillic letter combination. The piece looks very old and seems old under high magnification? I am sure it is old .I was assuming the stamp was a period forgery done in Persia or with a country that traded in the Caucuses and copied there wares as the had highly skilled silver smiths.. Some of the occupied territories or outposts did such work in the imperial era .

[Zolotnik]

Hi savolax -
this is a site to discuss authentic Russian silver. To discuss fakes you have to look elsewhere.

Regards
Zolotnik

[savolax]

Hi savolax -
this is a site to discuss authentic Russian silver. To discuss fakes you have to look elsewhere.

Regards
Zolotnik

The candle stick is imperial period and authentic the stamp was the question.

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[dognose]

Hi Zolotnik,

I'm just shooting in the dark here, but is possible that this item is plated? I ask because of the below detail from a U.S. Consular Report from 1902:

ST. PETERSBURG

IMPORTS AND EXPORTS

The amount of plated ware exported in 1901 was 94 poods (3,403 pounds), valued at 940 rubles ($484). The imports for the same period were manufactured articles–silver, weighing 9,649 poods (348,330 pounds), valued at 7,445,000 rubles ($3,985,075); silver ingots, weighing 20,552 pounds, valued at 959,000 rubles ($493,385).

Russians are prejudiced in favor of silverware of their own manufacture, as each firm is compelled by law to stamp every article manufactured with the figures 84, as well as initials of the firm, heavy penalties being provided for fraud.

See: viewtopic.php?f=38&t=25511

Or am I reading the above out of context?

Regards Trev.

[oel]

Hi,

The way I read it the Russians imported far more silver ingots compared to foreign silver ware. In the consular report we read;
Russian dealers said there is no demand for foreign silver or plated wares; that Russian designs are satisfactory, and labor is cheaper in Russia than in the United States the home made article is preferable. Russians are prejudiced in favor of silverware of their own manufacture, as each firm is compelled by law to stamp every article (I believe must read silver article) with the figures 84, as well as initials of the firm….
Perhaps the Consul General, being an American was not aware of Russian silver with a higher standard in zolotniks and the work of the Russian Assay authorities and the Russian hallmark rules.
However the item in this topic could be plated or made of a non precious alloy.

Oel

[Qrt.S]

I'm not either so eager to discuss fakes, but the questioned object is faked as Zolotnik correctly stated. The faker has no whatsoever knowledge of how a Russian object in silver should be marked. The marks on it are picked from the sky, both the town mark and the hallmark are missing, the maker's name is misspelled etc. etc...OK, perhaps it looks old in your eyes, so what?

And no Trev., the item is not plated....well actually it could be of whatever material except for authentic Russian silver or plated.

[savolax]

I'm not either so eager to discuss fakes, but the questioned object is faked as Zolotnik correctly stated. The faker has no whatsoever knowledge of how a Russian object in silver should be marked. The marks on it are picked from the sky, both the town mark and the hallmark are missing, the maker's name is misspelled etc. etc...OK, perhaps it looks old in your eyes, so what?

And no Trev., the item is not plated....well actually it could be of whatever material except for authentic Russian silver or plated.

a jewler tested it with nitric acid it is not plated

[Zolotnik]

Hi dognose -

after the 6th translation of an original text and the translators not being familiar with the matter sometimes the real sense is lost. In my opinion oel is spot on.

Regards
Zolotnik

[savolax]

Hi dognose -

after the 6th translation of an original text and the translators not being familiar with the matter sometimes the real sense is lost. In my opinion oel is spot on.

Regards
Zolotnik

Nitric acid doesn't lie according to the jewler.

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[Qrt.S]

Savolax! No need to be nasty. Face the reality.

Fakers usually use solid silver because its malleability. Your object can be made of silver but it is still a fake. The acid test has been discussed here many times. And oh yes, the acid test lies too often. Incorrectly or carelessly accomplished it can show silver for a plated object. Of course because the layer/surface on a plated object is 100% silver.

[Zolotnik]

Hi savolax -

instead of starting to be rude, please read the many articles about fakes on this forum. This will widen your horizon and make you perhaps understand the matter much better. To be more precise: your "object" is sloppy made, pure phantasy and unbelievable ugly! I. Khlebnikov was one of the best Russian artists and silversmiths....

Simple rule:
False/wrong/phantasy marks = fake
correct/genuine marks = authentic

Regards
Zolotnik