Need help!

[Zolotnik]

Hi all -
found some interesting spoons from ????
My opinion - please correct me if I am wrong:

I believe they are Baltic (Estonian) from Weissenstein, today Paide. The townmark looks like the tower used by the masters on their silver (6 different executions of this townmark are veriviable and known). Most of the 35 gold/silversmiths who are known by name - I only know 10(!) - were co-masters at the assay office in Reval.
My questions:
1) who is the master?
2) who is the assaymaster?
3) is it Paide?





Many thanks in advance
Regards
Zolotnik

[Qrt.S]

Hmmmm, just a guess; how about Gitomir? As it happens there is an unknown assayer ПК there 1873-1876 (P#431). The maker is unknown to me.

[Zolotnik]

Hi -
Schitomir is often mistaken with Riga or other Baltic towns - mostly because it is "Russian" silver - and everybody is looking in his Russian sources. But in my opinion it is typical Baltic silver under Russian rule. By the way, the assay master ПК has a middle dot - you can not see it very well. PL shows several - but they do not fit.
Leistikow shows also nothing. In Riga (where it was assayed in my opinion) were several until now unknown assay master.
So I have to wait and see.....

Thanks anyway

Regards
Zolotnik

[Qrt.S]

It is rather quiet on the Russian sites so let's discuss a bit more.---:-))))

Difficult to say but I would still stick to Gitomir/Schiomir/Schytomyr in Ukraine. It is not so far from Balticum. I don't believe in Riga. The both Riga town marks differ too much (crossed keys and town gate) from your mark. here is Gitomir's current crest



There are only two unknown assayers in Riga i.e. I·Д 1804 and Д·Л ~1880-1886, all others are known. Centralized dot or not is not crucial and as I said there was a suitable assayer in Gitomir at that time. Unfortunately he is unknown to name. Mind my asking what seems to be the maker's name? I have some difficulties in seeing it.

[Zolotnik]

Hi -
I did not write that the town mark is Riga - I believe that the town mark is Paide (the tower of the town, blasted up by the Russians in 1941 - so no photo). I wrote that:

. Most of the 35 gold/silversmiths who are known by name - I only know 10(!) - were co-masters at the assay office in Reval.

So there existed 25 more smiths I do not know by name and Leistiow do not list them. Kaalu Kirme gives 5 more names - that´s all I have. The smith´s name I can not clearly read but it is no Russian name in Latin letters.
Shitomir? Wrong shield ! Why not. But there too is not much known: 7 smiths, only one known by name, see PL p.160

For me they "smell" Baltic. Maybe sometimes the riddle is solved...

Regards
Zolotnik

[Qrt.S]

This is a difficult case indeed. Nonetheless, the problem with Paide is that there never was an assay office there and your spoon have a clear assay mark of ПК and a town mark. Therefore it cannot be assayed in Paide. For those who follow this discussion and wondering... FYI! The town Paide or Weissenstein in German is located in northern Estonia. Therefore Zolotnik "smells" Baltic.

Yes, it is true there is only a few smiths known working in Gitomir, but not many in Paide either. But do we know them all? Remember the hundreds of thousands of documents destroied as useless in the 1870thies.

[Dad]

Hi, All.

I agree with Qrt.S. It is Zhitomir - the center of Volynsk province. The Volynsk province is the former part of Poland before 1793.
Question for Qrt.S. If it is possible, to look the "unknown assayer in Riga i.e. I·Д 1804"?

The "unknown assayer in Riga i.e. Д·Л ~1880-1886" is Daniil Daniilovich Lesenko (Даниил Даниилович Лесенко), in 1885 the head of assay office of Riga.

Best Reg..

[Qrt.S]

Hello Dad,

I gather you're asking where from I have got the mark I·Д 1804? If that is the case, the answer is that I saw it on an object years ago. I did not have a camera with me so I only made a short note of it. It was a bad struck indeed and I can be wrong.

Mind my asking you where from is this Danil Lesenko information?

Rgds
Qrt.S

[Dad]

Mind my asking you where from is this Danil Lesenko information?
Qrt.S

Hi, Qrt.S.

Daniil Lesenko has finished the St.- Petersburg's Mining Institute in 1857. The information on D.Lesenko's work in Assay Office of Riga from the annual register of mining engineers of the Russian Empire for 1885 ("Список Горным Инженерам" за 1885 год).

Best Reg..

[Qrt.S]

Thank you Dad.

[Hephaistos]

33, not 35, silversmiths in Paide are known by name. No one has a name similar to the photos. Neither exists any assaymaster in Paide with the initals PK, nor in Estonia.