The Russian spoons

PHOTOS REQUIRED - marks + item
piette
contributor
Posts: 203
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2010 5:51 pm
Location: London, United Kingdom

Re: The Russian spoons

Post by piette »

asti wrote:Hi Piette

While I had the opportunity to study carefully some “nice” GK fakes, even with 6-7 colors.
In connection with this spoon, indeed we have only 5 colors, but what you can expect to find on a small coffee spoon?

I’m hundred percent sure ...

Regards,
Asti
Hi Asti,
I must admit, it is a very nice looking spoon! I like it and the wires do look good - would it be possible for you to show another close up picture of the enamelling on the bowl and the handle? I am interested to have another look.
My main suspicion was that the pattern was perhaps not as colourful or as detailed as should be expected of Klingert, but as you have said, it is a very small spoon.
Kind Regards,
Piette
asti
Posts: 60
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Location: Romania

Re: The Russian spoons

Post by asti »

Hi Piette,
This is the best of mt camera. It's tricky to observe, on the bowl are 3 different types of blue.

Image

Image

Image

Regards,
Asti
Zolotnik
Posts: 1024
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:35 am
Location: Germany

Re: The Russian spoons

Post by Zolotnik »

Hi asti -

with all respect, this spoon looks not authentic. My 3 question marks = see your photos

1) the complete "filled" pattern


Image

2) the bowl rim has allways light blue dots

Image

3) the mark

Image

Just to compare, some authentic Klinger objects. He always has the same style and colours - not like others, who used realy different patterns and colours.

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

Kind regards
Zolotnik
asti
Posts: 60
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Location: Romania

Re: The Russian spoons

Post by asti »

Dear Zolotnik,
I like this “fake” spoon more than yours. :)
Regards,
Asti
asti
Posts: 60
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Location: Romania

Re: The Russian spoons

Post by asti »

Hi Zolotnik,
The “beautiful fake”, last foto in natural light, real colors.
I would give this spoon a chance even if it’s not looking like yours…
Image
Regards,
Asti
Zolotnik
Posts: 1024
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:35 am
Location: Germany

Re: The Russian spoons

Post by Zolotnik »

Hi asti -

I know that several visitors of the forum think I have a mental problem with Russian silver and use the word "fake" too often. When I started collecting Russian silver over 20 years ago, I remember when I bought an enamel cigarette case by Ovtschinnikov for 120 $ from some Russian guys, everybody was loughing behind my back about this stupid tourist who spend money for worthless and nearly unsellable (exept to idiots...) objects. The first Russian "travellers" who came to Europe tryed to sell their 2 or 3 objects they had smuggled through all borders to antique dealers - but the dealers were not very enthusiastic about this stuff - it was not very sought after and blocked only the space. After the first auctions at Sotheby´s in the 80s-90s the chock about the tremendous prices that have been payed - the market exploded - everybody woke up. Also the people who started to fake Russian silver - first primitive and simple fakes from Poland and other eastern countrys, than better things fromThailand (enamel) and today China with its sophysticated industry and cheap man power.
I enclose photos of the bible ABEPC No 5 from 2001 (!) for acquisiting Russian silver and the at that time payed prices - from my Moscow friend В. Л. Кривцов. Now 10 years later look at the price increase...Very good and easy money for the fakers - big loss for the clueless buyers. Maybe you understand now why things are faked. It is brutal profit - and the clients help the fakers to make more money - because they do not want to learn and buy unproofed every nonsense again and again.

Image

Image

I know what I know, I can explain why and how and I try to stop you losing more money - and by the way I am still learning every day something new.

Kind regards
Zolotnik
asti
Posts: 60
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Location: Romania

Re: The Russian spoons

Post by asti »

Dear Zolotnik

I am a psychologist and I can say for sure that you don’t have a mental problems related to Russian silver and fakes. You're just a typical collector with certain strengths and weaknesses. Now you realize that rushed, and feel cornered. I can cheat me, but the question is: you can admit you were wrong?

A. Von Solodkoff page 64, fig. 74

Regards,
Asti
Zolotnik
Posts: 1024
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:35 am
Location: Germany

Re: The Russian spoons

Post by Zolotnik »

Hi asti -

I have no ego problem. As mentioned before I had or have no problems to accept facts or the greater knowledge of somebody - but the facts must be more or less convincing. The best are always real existing objects. Most of the fun of collecting is not only to get some new piece - but also to learn something new!

It must read: page 62, fig. 74 (the beaker jumps to the eyes, it is the ugliest piece on this page!).
Text:Tapering enamelled beaker with the turquoise enamel typical of Gustav Klingert´s work,......sold in an original case with the Morozov stamp. ????? With a case it must be authentic!!!

Please read same book, page 199, Morozov! He sold goods from other goldsmiths, but made his own enamel, see the diff. masters who worked in his workshop.

I can name you several "famous" books, where fakes are incorporated, here one for example:

Image

Disclaimer: This is my personal opinion and I want to discuss the diff. options - if I am wrong - see above - I would at once accept the news. If these objects are real, it is very easy to complete my collection - eBay is full of them.

Kind regards and please broaden my mind
Zolotnik
piette
contributor
Posts: 203
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2010 5:51 pm
Location: London, United Kingdom

Re: The Russian spoons

Post by piette »

Hi all,
I have to agree with Zolotnik here - before Zolotnik responded with his most recent post I went to check the picture you were referring to in my own copy of this book.

If you read the description of figure 74 closely, you will note that it describes all the other objects in that image as being 'by Grachev' whereas it simply says that the beaker is in the style of Klingert and that it has the masters initials GK - it doesn't actually say it is made by Klingert.

I have never held a genuine Klingert object in my hands but I have seen images of maybe 20-25 genuine Klingert objects, including Zolotnik's, and I haven't seen the large areas of blue enamelling on any of them. There seems to be a lot of writing about this being Klingert's signature style... who knows where that idea came from.

The only objects which I have seen that have these large blue enamelled areas have been made by Ivan Saltikov (Moscow 1884-1897(8)) and these tend to be on cigarette cases. When they are used, they are also surrounded by more complex and colourful patterns, such as figure 78 in Solodkoff's 'Russian Gold and Silverwork' book - I know Zolotnik also has a very beautiful Saltykov cigarette case in this style.
This doesn't mean that this is Saltykov's signature style - not at all. He worked in all styles and techniques to make extremely high quality objects using several colours of enamel on his cloisonné items - often three shades of blue, red, green, white and purple such as on this cigarette case, Moscow, 1893.

Image

Anyway - I am off topic now and we must get back to spoons! :-)
Regards,
Piette
asti
Posts: 60
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Location: Romania

Re: The Russian spoons

Post by asti »

Hi,

Piette, I'm sorry you're a little off topic and reading in stars is a complex science, so take it easy.

Dear Zolotnik my question was very simple and I expect a simple answer, no other picture of fakes from books. If you want to write a theory about fakes I can help you, just ask me. With due all respect, you offended my experience and intelligence and I waiting you to admit the fact you might be wrong... Broaden your mind, accept the truth and shall set you free from the fake fear.

Image

Kind regards,
Asti
Zolotnik
Posts: 1024
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:35 am
Location: Germany

Re: The Russian spoons

Post by Zolotnik »

Hi asti -

Do not ask for opinions if you can not live with the answers - I know from experienc how hurting it could be.
I not only gave you a simple answer, I tried to prove it with several reasons. I have authentic objects in my hand, not one looking like the shown photos. Maybe it is a coincidence that I always get the "other" Klingert? Than I am total wrong and all my objects are fakes. Apologies for that!!!

I see no marks, only read nonsense like: "...in the original box of Morozov". We both know that Morozow was also a vendor, all his objects bear his name and the name of the maker. If the beaker was sold by him, it must have his name next the name of Klingert ! The box is not interesting as long as the facts do not fit. I have seen real Fabergé in shoe boxes, fake Fabergé in authentic boxes and phantasy Fabergé in phantasy boxes. So much about intelligence.

As told before - I have no problem to admit that I am on the wrong way or made mistakes - all I want are a little bit more proofs. Otherwise we can stop all discussions and behave like a friend of mine (antique dealer), who always when he get a fake offered, answer: "Very interesting piece but unfortunately I am not interested".

Your spoon is a very interesting piece! (No honest answer, no useless fight...)

Kind regards
Zolotnik
Zolotnik
Posts: 1024
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:35 am
Location: Germany

Re: The Russian spoons

Post by Zolotnik »

Dear asti -

Maybe it is an unfortunate coincident that I always get the "wrong" Klingert. Apologies for that and an own opinion.

A friend of mine (antique dealer) says whenever a fake is offered to him: "Very interesting piece but unfortunately I have no interest in the moment". Very diplomatic and avoids a lot of useless discussions.
I only can learn from him:

asti, your spoon is very interesting!

Kind regards
Zolotnik
asti
Posts: 60
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Location: Romania

Re: The Russian spoons

Post by asti »

Dear Zolotnik, thank you for honesty. On the other hand I see that you're nervous and repeat thoughts in two consecutive posts ... No, your objects are not false, are just different, stay quiet. You should get used to the idea that this university is not limited to your collection, otherwise you will always oscillate between these two possibilities: yours or other's ...

Best regards,
Asti
asti
Posts: 60
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Location: Romania

Re: The Russian spoons

Post by asti »

And, sadly have to notice that not everything in this world look like those in your collection. That does not mean you have to throw mud on everything is different. Sorry to say this, but I came to this conclusion, and I hope that bitter spoon does not turn into a nightmare for you.
http://artist.christies.com/Klingert-Gustav-30186.aspx
Best regards,
Asti
Zolotnik
Posts: 1024
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:35 am
Location: Germany

Re: The Russian spoons

Post by Zolotnik »

Hi asti -

without drifting to dogmatism: experience for years and several authentic pieces at my hands, which look complete different, let me come to the conclusion I stated. That is my opinion - nothing more. If you can profit or not is your problem - but no reason to get personal I think.
By the way: every ernest collector knows that all auction houses (famous or not) sell "contemporary" Russian objects, without noticing the buyers. It is not all gold what´s shiny or sold by a big name.
Maybe , with growing experience you will perhaps learn some day that you have done me wrong...

Regards
Zolotnik
asti
Posts: 60
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Location: Romania

Re: The Russian spoons

Post by asti »

Hi Zolotnik,

Thank you for your concern to help me to not have the “another” and “wrong” Klingert. Further any comment is superfluous. If you want to understand more than the limits that you imposed, I gave plenty of clues. Your stubbornness surpassed all limits when it comes to personal pride and ego. I did not take anything too personally and understand you perfectly, especially since I know very well that you can be a great gentlemen sometimes.

I'll stop here, I’m not fake obsessions psychologist.

Kind regards,
Asti
dognose
Site Admin
Posts: 59334
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 12:53 pm
Location: England

Re: The Russian spoons

Post by dognose »

Gentleman, this excellent topic is being spoiled by this constant bickering. Enough is enough, agree to disagree or this topic will be locked.

Regards Trev.
Post Reply

Return to “Russian Silver”