Russian spoon from Moscow 1826

[R ingo]

Hello,
can someone help me with this russian makers mark from 1826?

Thanks and kind regards,
Ringo

[Zolotnik]

With several doubts about the marks....

Assayer: Dubrowin Nikolaj L.
Master: Pitschugin Fedor M.

[R ingo]

Hello Zolotnik,
I thank you very much for your help.
I thought before te makers mark looks like ЦФ.

Thanks and kind regards,
Ringo

[Zolotnik]

Hello Ringo -

As said before, I have some problems with the marks.
First - the assay mark is not as it should be - the Д in the shown form was not used by Dubrowin - see photo.



Second - the maker´s mark was in 99% of the cases struck upside down to the other marks - a well noticed fact by people who collect and handle Russian silver!
In your example all marks are in line.
Third - a maker ЦФ is not known in Moscow according to my sources.
If I turn ЦФ to ФП (pure phantasy....) I come to Pitschugin....but he made no spoons!
Fourth - the spoon pattern is unusual for Russia.

Just my 2 cents!

Please decide for yourself.

Regards
Zolotnik

[Dad]

Hi, All.
I will add the 2 cents))). The first letter in Russian silversmiths mark - a name silversmith. It is difficult to find a name which begins on a letter "Ц". It is almost impossible. Certainly "ПФ".
It's normal marks.

[Qrt.S]

This is an interesting and strange spoon. As stated, it does not look Russian and the marks are on an odd place. The assayer could possibly indicate Nikolai Dubrovin but on the spoon is punched НД (ND) while Zolotnik's example shows НЛ (NL)??? Maybe Postnikova made an error? The letters could have been misinterpreted. Perhaps Dubrovin used his patronymic name Lukitsh as a second initial, I don't know really. However, there are some other things too. The maker is a complete mystery; ЦФ, not a trace of him in my sources. I also tried to find a Russian forename staring with Ц and found one; ЦЕСАР (Cesar) and that is not even a Russian name. The Ф was also at that time also often written the old 1708 way, horizontally and not vertically split, but?

As for the maker's mark, and I have said this before. It is only an unfounded claim or "rumor" on the field that it should be upside down to the maker's mark.There is no evidence, edicts, regulations, charters, whatsoever demanding the assayer's mark to be punched upside down to the maker's mark. The assayer didn't pay any other notice the maker's mark angle only that it had to be punched on the object. There was no reason or time spent to do that. When the purity was found legal, the assayer punched his mark and that was that. The possibility of it being up side down or not is therefore 50/50.

If somebody is able to put up other reliable facts, I would be interested in hearing them with statement of the reason(s), thank you.

[Zolotnik]

As for the maker's mark, and I have said this before. It is only an unfounded claim or "rumor" on the field that it should be upside down to the maker's mark.There is no evidence,

There is no evidence

edicts, regulations, charters, whatsoever demanding the assayer's mark to be punched upside down to the maker's mark. The assayer didn't pay any other notice the maker's mark angle only that it had to be punched on the object. There was no reason or time spent to do that. When the purity was found legal, the assayer punched his mark and that was that. The possibility of it being up side down or not is therefore 50/50.

Please just accept what others have noticed over dekades or just open your eyes and your mind!

[Zolotnik]

Hi Ringo -

found an original Dubrovnik, also from 1826. The assayer´s mark in PL is obvious a typo.







Regards

Zolotnik

[R ingo]

Hello Zolotnik, Dad and Qrt.S,

thanks to all for the very interesting discussion!
I am no expert in russian silver and did not expected, that this is a problematic mark. I hope, it is also interesting for you. I made some better photos of the marks. May be, it helps.

Concerning to the Information, that the pattern is unusual for Russia I found in this forum two similar spoons from Russia from the same time, first third of the 19th century ( viewtopic.php?t=22028 ).


Many thanks and kind regards,
Ringo

[Dad]

This is an interesting and strange spoon. As stated, it does not look Russian and the marks are on an odd place. The assayer could possibly indicate Nikolai Dubrovin but on the spoon is punched НД (ND) while Zolotnik's example shows НЛ (NL)??? Maybe Postnikova made an error? The letters could have been misinterpreted. Perhaps Dubrovin used his patronymic name Lukitsh as a second initial, I don't know really.

Hi, Qrt.S.

Postnikova didn't make a mistake. In its drawing of punch of Dubrovin (Дубровин) there is a letter "Д". Because of the bad technics of the printing, copying and etc. The letter "Д" has lost a part and has turned to a letter "Л". I want to repeat. Punches from the Postnikova's book aren't exact copies, it not photos. These are drawings. Therefore it often differ (graphically) from originals. It shouldn't mislead the researcher.

To R ingo. Thanks for excellent photos.))

Best Reg..

[Qrt.S]

To Dad,
Yes we all know that Postnikova's pictures are soot mark only, but this is a lousy copy indeed and very easy to misinterpret to Н·Л. Then we can agree on that Dubrovin's punch was Н·Д. Zolotnik's finding above give it an additional verification. But the maker is still a mystery ...

To Zolotnik:
Yes of course there are upside down mark to some extent on Russian objects for reasons I have stated. But what I'm am opposing about are statements like this, unverified and based on nothing else than an unfounded claim like "because I say so..."

Please just accept what others have noticed over dekades or just open your eyes and your mind!

No way I would say! Even if marking silver is not an absolute science there are rules ... I'm open minded enough but until any evidences of any Russian rules or similar are presented here that tell me that the assayer's mark must be punched up side down in relation to the maker's mark, I and others alike consider it purely coincidental (50/50)

Moreover, If there was a"rule", why are some marks not upside down? As very well known, the Russian ruling was very strict, why didn't the assayer's follow this claimed "regulation"? Weren't they prominent authorities?
By the way I checked the "up side down marks" on my minor Russian collection and guess what I found? Believe it or not but about 50/50, amazing indeed. How come?

Put up some reliable facts thank you!

[Zolotnik]

Hi Qrt.s -

To Zolotnik:
Yes of course there are upside down mark to some extent on Russian objects for reasons I have stated. But what I'm am opposing about are statements like this, unverified and based on nothing else than an unfounded claim like "because I say so..."

I know this discussion is fruitless - it is not "because I say so.." - it is "because I noticed it.."! A little difference.
If you can use it, OK. If you deny it, also OK. But do not forget that there are other members on the board who are happy to learn/register something they can use. Maybe you know that there are letter combinations which you can read both ways. So it is good to know that you have 2 chances to discover the maker.

By the way: I am a great fan of your borderless wisdom and your uncompromising faith in rules - but please do not forget the reality showing up every day.

Regards
Zolotnik

[Qrt.S]

Yes, yes, than you very much Zolotnik. I respect your knowledge as well as your notifications based on "reality". However, irrespective of it maybe sounding like nagging, I repeat my question because you avoided to answer it. If there is/was a rule demanding the marks being up side down in respect of each other then why are not all marks, only about half of them, punched like that? Rules and regulations are supposed to be obeyed, aren't they? "Reality" does not mean that it was allowed to the assayers to break the (non-existing) "rules" just like that. It is, however, correct that some marks can be read both ways, but they are rather few i.e combination of I, И, Н, О, X and Ф. Actually this might be one reason causing partly this up side down "misunderstanding".

What I am trying to tell is that you cannot tell the members of this board that a Russian object is falsified only for the reason that maker's mark and assayer's mark are not up side down in comparison to each other. That is simply not true and a false statement. That is my point.

Have a nice day dear Zolotnik

[asti]

The usual pattern for this period in Russia and East Europe was the early longer fiddle. The only “correct” thing on this spoon is the period, beginning of 19 century. This hanoverian spoon was 100% made in Western Europe. My spoon collector opinion…

[asti]

And, it's something wrong with the year... the number 2 is looking like a 9 hu was modified... anyway, I never seen markings from this period to look soo sharp, like this ones.

[Zolotnik]

Hi asti -

the spoon pattern was from the begining doubtful to me. The marks are "correct", i.e. they are copied from real marks. (Laser...). The number "2" on my snuffbox is identic - and nobody will assume that this box is a fake (the style, measures, niello technique, thumb piece, sujet etc. are as they should be).

The fake market is without scrouple. Now the obligatory question: why faking a simple spoon? Where is the profit? Answer: this fakes are made idustrially in up to date equipped factories in large quatyties (see the antique - and online auctions). Calculation: bought out of the scrap box at the melter: 50 cents, marks: 7 Euro, advertising and selling on some auction site: 4% of the total selling price, selling price because it is a not often seen spoon (you normaly can not find it, because it did not exist in this form...) minimum 160 Euro. No profit???? Take this number by just 100 pieces!

Here a nice article to understand better what I wrote:



Just the top layer of a dustbin full of silver awaiting the melt at Hatton Garden bullion dealers 375 Live Ltd. They traded close to a tonne of silver on Tuesday, April 26, when the scrap value touched £30 an ounce.


HUGE quantities of antique silver and gold were scrapped last week as precious metal prices hit record highs.

Silver dealers in particular clamoured to take advantage of a two-fold hike in the bullion market, the like of which has not been seen for 30 years.

Driven by a weaker US dollar and continuing tensions in the Middle East and North Africa, the prices of gold and silver hit new record highs on Monday, April 25 (a bank holiday in the UK) and on the European markets the following day.

Gold rose as high as $1518.30 (£918.70) an ounce, while silver briefly reached an all-time high of $49.79 (£30.13) an ounce. In the following days prices fell back a little, but silver, at close to £25 an ounce, is comfortably at its highest since January 1980 and the peak of the Bunker Hunt bubble (see here). The precious white metal has gained more than 160 per cent in the past year alone.

These rises brought remarkable scenes as bullion dealers across the country were inundated with material for scrapping. Hatton Garden firm 375 Live Ltd traded close to a metric tonne of silver on Tuesday, April 26, when prices touched £30 an ounce.

With their value as a raw material far outstripping their value as antiques, proprietor Steve Conway saw some "stunning" objects emerging from the dealing community to be scrapped.

Good quality Victorian tea sets, Georgian salvers, trophies, cruet sets and flatware were melted onsite as more than £1.5m changed hands.

When ATG visited the following day (when the price was just over £23 an ounce), the plastic dustbins filling with silver included items of the calibre of a large George II armorial-engraved salver weighing 70oz (scrap value £1610) and a late 19th century Tiffany engraved tea and coffee service weighing in at 260oz (£5980) with its ornate tea kettle and stand. If they had not been 'saved' by a buyer wishing to own them as functional works of art by the close of trading, they were heading to the crucible.

Why have prices spiked? Silver is a key metal in the production of electrical components, but more generally investors are buying precious metals as a haven against a host of financial uncertainties (particularly inflation and a weak dollar) and the recent geopolitical turmoil.

Gold has been strong since the global financial crisis of 2008. However, the price of silver has been more volatile, having quintupled since 2008, and has grown 12-fold in the last decade.

By Roland Arkell

How about a special threat abot Russian spoons - I can contribute a lot.

Regards
Zolotnik

[asti]

Hi Zolotnik,

About the article,
Everywhere the rising of the silver price had this effect… last week I’ve spec with a lot of antic dealers from Hungary, Austria and Germany. The story was the same, 70 to 80% of old silver items are going to scrap. The dealers prefers this way, it’s a quick way to make some money. In Romania and Bulgaria the percent of scraping is higher, maybe 85-90%. The effect of this old silver drama will be a new start of silver faking. The original items are melted, and the market will be saturated with brand new faked items, usually Russians, at high prices. The buyers will exist for them all the time, like in the past…

This is the classical Russian fiddle pattern for 19 century…



Regards
Cristian

[R ingo]

Hello ,

if it is a fake, I hafe no problems with this fakt. I am not a collector of russia silver and I bought the spoon in a quite desolate state on a flea-marked for 2 Euro. So it is hard to belief for me, that the seller is a faker.

To the pattern:
Hallo asti, this is not hanoverian pattern. Hanoverian pattern looks so: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=21756&p=50876#p50876

The pattern from my spoon became in variations common in Germany (and Nortern Europe) since circa 1800 (surely influenced from England, where this pattern started in the 1760s) and was used there at the same time with fiddle- and lancette pattern.
I know, that this pattern was also common up to Königsberg / Kaliningrad at the same time. From there it is not far to St. Petersburg or Moscow.

Kind regards,
Ringo

[Zolotnik]

Hi asti -

real nice Russian spoons!! It is a pleasure to see some real Russian marksmanship! If we want a spoon thread, we have to start a new thread - it would be very interesting...

Hi Ringo -

I am not 100% sure if your spoon is a fake or not. The marks look very authentic but the spoon pattern is uncommon for Russia. Although Russian silver smiths bought spoons from other makers (to make a better profit), I do not believe they bought them from Königsberg (Prussia) - they had to pay Customs fees, shipping costs etc. So what is this spoon in reality? A fake or a pattern nobody has seen until now?
Maybe a spoon thread gives some answers - let´s do it.

Regards
Zolotnik

[Dad]

Hi, All.

It is a normal spoon. Russia isn't the closed territory. 1826 - 10 years have passed after campaigns across Europe and victories over Napoleon. In Russia did spoons in the European style, too.

Here the "sister" of Ringo's spoon))):



I don't like picture on the Zolotnik's snuffbox any more. Here it is a typical European picture, nothing Russian theme.)))

Best Reg..