I need help identifying these spoons

[thealon]

[Dad]

Hi, All.

I congratulate. Very good spoons. Enamel in the technician champleve. It is Ivan Khlebnikov's well-known firm. On a spoon we see a cyrillic mark of Ivan Khlebnikov ( "И.Х" (Иван Хлебников) with a sign of supplier of Grand Duke Konstantin Nikolaevich.

88 zolotniks (.916 silver standard), Moscow city mark, 1877

Best Reg..

[Zolotnik]

With due respect:
The Khlebnikov mark И dot in the middle X was only used in St. Petersburg! The shown spoons have as townmark Moscow, the wrong handles (too thick) and the wrong colours. The Imperial Double-Headed Eagle stands for: Court Supplier.
Conclusion: not kosher

Sorces:
P-L #2938, #2517, #1298, #1436a
Russian Silver p 39

[Qrt.S]

In addition, the court supplier mark was granted in 1881, this spoon is "hallmarked" 1877. The hallmark in general looks strange with a Moscow town mark with only one cut corner. Moreover, not actually an ordinary Russian pattern. Something is not in place here...

[Dad]

1. Show short mark (ИХ) Khlebnikov from Moscow by Postnikova, please. Postnikova doesn't write that the mark "И.Х" with dot was used only in Petersburg.
If you attentively read the Postnikova's book, she writes: "... On products 1870-9 there are Petersburg marks of Hlebnikov's firm " (it is underlined red):



2. I didn't write about an Imperial Double-Headed Eagle of the supplier of imperial court . Khlebnikov became the supplier of Grand Duke (Great Prince) of Konstantin Nikolaevich in 1872.
It is other mark, it not an eagle.



3. " ... the wrong handles (too thick) and the wrong colours" - no comments ;0))))

Best Reg..

[Zolotnik]

[/quote]

See the clumsy handle. By admin I am not allowed to post pictures, so I can not show real Khlebnikov spoons in form and his typical colours. I never have seen the клеймо Посмаещика великояо князя Консманмина Николаевича on a little spoon - only on larger objects.

[admin]

By admin I am not allowed to post pictures

Nonsense, post as many pictures as you like, just use a public account as noted in my previous message to you. see post-> viewtopic.php?f=47&t=23669&p=56956

Here's a link to tinypic.
http://www.tinypic.com
They are the host to thousands of images in use on this forum, I am sure they would be gracious enough to host yours.

Regards, Tom

[Qrt.S]

Are you really serious Dad? The mark you show compared with the mark on the spoon is not the same even if there are some similarities. Take a new closer look please. Pay attention to the letters KH. However, it is true that Hlebnikov was a supplier to the grand dukes Konstantin Nikolajevitsh as from 1872 and Vladimir Aleksandrovitsh as from 1877 but this is hardly the case here.

[piette]

I have been keeping my eye on this topic for a while now and in that time I have changed my mind-set from 'fake' to 'genuine' a hundred times over.

For a while I agreed with Dad, then with Qrt.S and Zolotnik, then Dad again etc. I have had a good look through my books and as far as I am concerned, the evidence which says that these spoons are fake outweighs the evidence which says that they are real.

Look at the makers mark! It is И Х except there are two dots in between the letters. One dot is at the bottom, and one in the middle of the line!

There are no Khlebnikov marks like this at all...

The Grand Duke supplier mark also looks dubious to me. The quality of the spoons is also questionable... here is some real enamelling by Khlebnikov on the handle of a spoon:
http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj239/ammolithmine/049.jpg
I have not embedded the picture as it is very large.

On the other hand, a reprint of a catalogue by Khlebnikov does show similar spoons:


Overall conclusion: I don't think these spoons are genine... they bear a non-existant Khlebnikov mark and the enamelling just isn't right.

Best Rdgs,
Piette

[Dad]

Hi, All.

This your right — to see or not to see mark of the supplier of a court yard of the grand duke.
I see this mark.
Thanks to magnificent a photo of Thealonr we can see these marks. On the majority of such spoons of mark practically it is impossible to read — all of them are cut off.
You can ask to make the Thealon of 5 more such magnificent photos of marks from other spoons. I think it will be correct.

I don't know other supplier of the grand duke with initials И.Х. except Klebnikov.
Here an example of such marks: http://www.silvercollection.it/061russi ... lmark.html



To Zolotnik :
If you don't like spoon proportions, ask Thealon to photograph spoons not lengthways, but across (perpendicularly). I think, it is an optical deceit.
And : " Поставщика Великого Князя Константина Николаевича " This is correct.

Best Reg..

[Zolotnik]

To Dad -

I do not know why you always ignore the facts shown by the object of discussion. There is no doubt that there is a mark that should resemble the mark of Grand Duke N. - but my answer was, that I never saw this mark on a little object like a spoon. Second I asked you to show a spoon with this mark. There were thousands of spoons in all sizes - so it must be no problem to show only one. It is the silverwork of your country that we are discussing - with all your opportunities, museums and archives. Have a look at the catalogue reprint of Piette: lock at the stems (handles) of the spoons: they are much more slender and elegant than the spoons shown by thealon. You just laugh and speak about perspective! It is your good right to believe that this spoons are ok - but please remember that you are responsible for your answer on this forum. Now thealon thinks he has authentic spoons of one of Russian´s best! What poor quality!
By the way: I thank you very much for your continuing spellchecks - it seems that Russian literature is full of misspellings. Not realy my fault - sorry for believing I could trust this authors.

[Zolotnik]

Here some photos of Khlebnikov´s quality and marks

Tea/coffee pot



His marks



Supplyer mark



2 spoons (see shaft/handle of the 2nd spoon)

[Dad]

Hi, Thealon.

Show us still marks from other spoons. Please.

[thealon]

Hi, All
Here are some more pictures of the spoons

\

[Qrt.S]

Well, I would say that the marks are more than dubious and I have said it all the time.

[Zolotnik]

As already stated:
marks, quality, wormanship and colours of the enamel are not the work of Khlebnikov! The usual lookalikesmade to cheat the seller.
It pays off to do his homeworke before buying off!
To read the forum enlarge the horizon and save money!

[piette]

If this is a set of six spoons then why are five of them marked with the dvoinik for St Petersburg 1882-1898 and the other one of them marked Moscow 1877???
Also, to add to this, the Firm of Khlebnikov moved entirely to Moscow in 1871, and did no work in St Petersburg after this date - so how did they make these 1882-1898 StP spoons?
It would seem that the only conclusion to be drawn from these items is that they are what Qrt.S and Zolotnik have been saying all along...
Regards,
Piette

[piette]

If this is a set of six spoons then why are five of them marked with the dvoinik for St Petersburg 1882-1898 and the other one of them marked Moscow 1877???

Apologies everyone! I did not look closely enough at the photos and as a result of this, I mistook a blurred photo of what is meant to be the Moscow St George for the StP Crossed Anchors... They are marked with the 'Moscow Dvoinik' for 1882-1898, but this mark is still not correct. The cartouche is not the right shape and the 'prongs' which should be present in the mark are not there. Same conclusion...

Regards,
Piette

[Zolotnik]

As we all know - the market is flooded with fakes - not only Russian silver - but also highend watches, fashion, spareparts for BMW, Mercedes, airplanes etc.There is much money to earn. Latest numbers for 2010 of the international Customs: 800 Billions USD in confiscated goods.
On this forum and on many auctions you can see the rising of this negative development. Most of the customers are easy pray - they buy something they do not know but have a uncertain feeling of.
Than the neverending discussions start: " How can somebody make money by faking some spoons, the work is so brilliant and so on.They never have seen original spoons, does not understand the technique and quality, the marks and do not know what the given silversmith/firm was known for. After some doubts they contact a forum and ask for help. Instead of clear answers they get several "opinions" - from 100% authentic to 100% fake. Very disturbing! Even the "experts" have troubles to identify the fakes - mostly because they never have seen real pieces, only fakes. You do not see Khlebnikov spoons (real) in the wild very often! Only on eBay or auctionhouses - and than in the dozens in a box. I never had the fortune to find 6 spoons from a major maker like Khlebnikov over several decades! (if you sell them one by one you make more money...).
I handle a lot of Russian silver on dayly/weekly basis and can clearly notice the evolution from individual fakes to industrially made fakes - which are getting better and better. Sites like this help the fakers a lot to make their output waterproof! It depends on us to make their life more difficult by stopping the education - free of charge.

Just my 2 cents...

[Dad]

Hi, All.
Thealon. Thanks for new photos. I have already stated the opinion. On this photo : 1877, Moscow. Manufacturer - "ИХ", the supplier of the Grand Duke. I know the supplier of the Grand duke with such initials only Ivan Khlebnikov.
Zolotnik. "Work" and "enamel" are normal and qualitative. An ornament is in "russian" style. Simple subjects. What it is possible to demand from a spoon? Patterns of eggs Faberge?
For an example:



Piette. On last five spoons there is a mark — an oval (88 + George). Such mark is mentioned at the P.- L., as «Moscow 1878». Contradictions 1877-1878 I don't see.



Best Reg..

P.S. “...It is the silverwork of your country that we are discussing - with all your opportunities, museums and archives...” - May be you “Postnikov” (or “Sazikov2000”)? Similar phrases. ;0)))