Hi, All.
Qrt.S is right : http://www.925-1000.com/david-andersen_marks.html
Firm of Sazikov
Re: Firm of Sazikov
I'm not bashing you but protecting you from talking rubbish now and then. You are my fried, aren't you?
Take a look at this link , second mark up left. Then tell me again who the maker is.
http://www.925-1000.com/david-andersen_marks.html. If the link is not good enough take a look at another mark. Look below.........do I hear something?
Take a look at this link , second mark up left. Then tell me again who the maker is.
http://www.925-1000.com/david-andersen_marks.html. If the link is not good enough take a look at another mark. Look below.........do I hear something?
Re: Firm of Sazikov
Juke wrote:Hi!
I agree that the quality on the cup showed by Ivan is not what one would expect from Sazikov so it is a question mark. Unfortunately it don't answear if the double monarch mark was used by Sazikov meaning if all items with this mark would be fakes.
I was also more refering to the other items I have seen previously. I sent you a link to the tea set so you can see it.
Regards,
Juke
Hi.
If you write about me - me don't call Ivan.
It's not a cup. It's charka for wine (vodka). About 100 milliliters.
Technics of profound enamel.
Re: Firm of Sazikov
Sorry Dad, I wrote in a hurry and yes I didn't have the time to call it a charka but you are right. :)
Re: Firm of Sazikov
I congratulate everyone on a Light Holiday of Christmas!
Re: Firm of Sazikov
Hi!
I found some more information regarding Sazikov and the International Exposition in London in 1851. The First Grade Medal received by Sazikov (mentioned previously in a text) is mentioned in another book to be actually the Grand Gold Medal. I believe this enlights that it is convincing that the mark with the profile of Victoria and Albert is genuine and used by Sazikov.
It is hard to believe that it would be by accident that this mark appears on Sazikov items, for instance there would be an overstrike on the other marks (marks showed by oel, tea set with tray etc.), meaning that such items would have another maker behind it than Sazikov who would have had this award mark (be it russian, english or what ever). It is also hard to believe that if this award mark exists on items with the Sazikov makers mark that they all would then be fakes. It is also hard to believe that some fakers would had decided to add this award mark on Sazikov items as they would most likely have had no idea that Sazikov even had won this kind of Gold medal in 1851.
Therefore I am convinced that this award mark is genuine (it of course can also be forged for instance as mentioned previously about the question mark regarding the charka showed by Dad).
An interesting addition is mentioned that Sazikov achieved a Gold medal in one exposition with a large silver candelabrum made in the form of sculptured group of figures. It was about three meters in heigh and weigted 130 kg. If you see this on sale it is worthwhile considering buying it. :)
Regards,
Juke
I found some more information regarding Sazikov and the International Exposition in London in 1851. The First Grade Medal received by Sazikov (mentioned previously in a text) is mentioned in another book to be actually the Grand Gold Medal. I believe this enlights that it is convincing that the mark with the profile of Victoria and Albert is genuine and used by Sazikov.
It is hard to believe that it would be by accident that this mark appears on Sazikov items, for instance there would be an overstrike on the other marks (marks showed by oel, tea set with tray etc.), meaning that such items would have another maker behind it than Sazikov who would have had this award mark (be it russian, english or what ever). It is also hard to believe that if this award mark exists on items with the Sazikov makers mark that they all would then be fakes. It is also hard to believe that some fakers would had decided to add this award mark on Sazikov items as they would most likely have had no idea that Sazikov even had won this kind of Gold medal in 1851.
Therefore I am convinced that this award mark is genuine (it of course can also be forged for instance as mentioned previously about the question mark regarding the charka showed by Dad).
An interesting addition is mentioned that Sazikov achieved a Gold medal in one exposition with a large silver candelabrum made in the form of sculptured group of figures. It was about three meters in heigh and weigted 130 kg. If you see this on sale it is worthwhile considering buying it. :)
Regards,
Juke
Re: Firm of Sazikov
Hi Juke,
Thanks. The question remains. Please, let someone show us a real Sazikov item, with hallmarks beyond any doubt, Sazikov punch without doubts in combination with this medal award punch . Otherwise, to many assumptions, this does not prove anything!
Regards,
Oel
Thanks. The question remains. Please, let someone show us a real Sazikov item, with hallmarks beyond any doubt, Sazikov punch without doubts in combination with this medal award punch . Otherwise, to many assumptions, this does not prove anything!
Regards,
Oel
Re: Firm of Sazikov
Hi oel -
here are 3 fake marks, 2 with medal (my opinion, the experts know better)
here is one authentic mark (my opinion, experts know better)
Regards
Postnikov
here are 3 fake marks, 2 with medal (my opinion, the experts know better)
here is one authentic mark (my opinion, experts know better)
Regards
Postnikov
Re: Firm of Sazikov
Hi all -
to stop the usual endless diskussions about fake or not fake, here is the answer: the Court jeweller stamp is not round, it outlines the eagle´s wings. This is the authentic stamp! Please have a look at the often and often mentioned blurry and unprecise SAZIKOV - the real SAZIKOV have a complete different font - too complicated for fakers. Look at the "monkey heads" of the medal.
Look at the "one piece" stamp of assayer/date - silver content - townmark and compare with the coffee/tea set mark, which consists of 3 single, overlapping punches. Also see that another punsh is hidden underneath a punch. I do not know what we are talking about. The tsharka Dad shows - are the marks and the enamel, the bad soldered handles and the sloppy enamel pattern (each has another form and measures) a gold medal worthy work? Back to the coffee/tea set. Has anybody seen (in literature, museums or exhibitions salvers from Sazikov? Has seen someone coffee/tea sets in this French/English style with their typical hot water urnes made by Sazikov? Do you know that he was famous for his table center pieces with figurines for which he earned several medals or was mentioned at famous exhibitions in Russia and abroad?
Where are the many "experts" and show their own authentic marks - not the marks you find on auction sites, auction house catalogues or other dubious sources? If authentic Sazikov objects are so common that they were sold in every auction house and even on ...Bay by the dozends (start price 1 $) - it could not be very hard to find something to show. Experts have collections or at least have seen and handled countless times what they are speaking of. Yes or No ?
Just for the blind: the last photo is the authentic stamp!
Regards
Postnikov
to stop the usual endless diskussions about fake or not fake, here is the answer: the Court jeweller stamp is not round, it outlines the eagle´s wings. This is the authentic stamp! Please have a look at the often and often mentioned blurry and unprecise SAZIKOV - the real SAZIKOV have a complete different font - too complicated for fakers. Look at the "monkey heads" of the medal.
Look at the "one piece" stamp of assayer/date - silver content - townmark and compare with the coffee/tea set mark, which consists of 3 single, overlapping punches. Also see that another punsh is hidden underneath a punch. I do not know what we are talking about. The tsharka Dad shows - are the marks and the enamel, the bad soldered handles and the sloppy enamel pattern (each has another form and measures) a gold medal worthy work? Back to the coffee/tea set. Has anybody seen (in literature, museums or exhibitions salvers from Sazikov? Has seen someone coffee/tea sets in this French/English style with their typical hot water urnes made by Sazikov? Do you know that he was famous for his table center pieces with figurines for which he earned several medals or was mentioned at famous exhibitions in Russia and abroad?
Where are the many "experts" and show their own authentic marks - not the marks you find on auction sites, auction house catalogues or other dubious sources? If authentic Sazikov objects are so common that they were sold in every auction house and even on ...Bay by the dozends (start price 1 $) - it could not be very hard to find something to show. Experts have collections or at least have seen and handled countless times what they are speaking of. Yes or No ?
Just for the blind: the last photo is the authentic stamp!
Regards
Postnikov
Re: Firm of Sazikov
Hi!
There are two different questions here so lets not mix them up, the existens of the profile of Victoria and Albert mark and the different questions of autheticity of different Sazikov marks.
My main objective with what I wrote was to ensure if Sazikov used this profile of Victoria and Albert mark with his items. My conclusion was that this mark has been used on Sazikov items during c. 10 years period after 1851 when the award was received. Why, because if the mark didn't exist on Sazikov items it don't make sense that some fakers would have used this mark by themselves to make the marks look even more strange, etc. other things what I wrote about it. My point was there are much more reasons that the mark existed than that the mark would always be a fake. If you believe this mark didn't exist what are your reasoning that this mark appears with Sazikov marks (I can't think of a reason that would make sense as I wrote). If you consider them all to be fake what is the reasoning other than it don't need to be there? It is totally another question that this mark to my opinion also has been faked.
I fully agree with oel that if sombody would happend to have or a picture of an item from this period with Sazikov then we would get more confirmation. I know also that authentic Sazikov items are rare to find and even rarer to find one exactly from this time period.
Then it is a total another question of authenticity of the marks. I fully agree on the marks that you Postnikov sent (3 fake, one real) and the charka Dad sent (fake). Then of the tea/coffee set I am not fully sure but in my opinion I would consider it authentic but that is just my opinion.
I agree also on the point that Sazikov's court jeweller mark tend to be along the outlines. Note also the mark in PL #1401 which is a carbon copy of a round mark.
Regards,
Juke
There are two different questions here so lets not mix them up, the existens of the profile of Victoria and Albert mark and the different questions of autheticity of different Sazikov marks.
My main objective with what I wrote was to ensure if Sazikov used this profile of Victoria and Albert mark with his items. My conclusion was that this mark has been used on Sazikov items during c. 10 years period after 1851 when the award was received. Why, because if the mark didn't exist on Sazikov items it don't make sense that some fakers would have used this mark by themselves to make the marks look even more strange, etc. other things what I wrote about it. My point was there are much more reasons that the mark existed than that the mark would always be a fake. If you believe this mark didn't exist what are your reasoning that this mark appears with Sazikov marks (I can't think of a reason that would make sense as I wrote). If you consider them all to be fake what is the reasoning other than it don't need to be there? It is totally another question that this mark to my opinion also has been faked.
I fully agree with oel that if sombody would happend to have or a picture of an item from this period with Sazikov then we would get more confirmation. I know also that authentic Sazikov items are rare to find and even rarer to find one exactly from this time period.
Then it is a total another question of authenticity of the marks. I fully agree on the marks that you Postnikov sent (3 fake, one real) and the charka Dad sent (fake). Then of the tea/coffee set I am not fully sure but in my opinion I would consider it authentic but that is just my opinion.
I agree also on the point that Sazikov's court jeweller mark tend to be along the outlines. Note also the mark in PL #1401 which is a carbon copy of a round mark.
Regards,
Juke
Re: Firm of Sazikov
Hi Juke -
you told me that you had seen the coffee/tea set we speak about in that auction house. Do you had the chance to inspect it more closely (on the days where visitors are allowed to inspect the objects)? If yes - how did the marks look on the different lids and on the salver? Have they looked like the by oel shown marks (3 separate part marks), identic or different? Or have you only admired it from the distance? (please do not feel attacked, I just want to know, if you have seen something that would strengthen or cancel our doubts).
When I remember right, I saw this "medal mark" 3 or 4 years ago the first time - on obvious fakes. We both know that there are hundreds of Sazikov´s objects flooding the market - the quality ranges from super ugly to normal ugly. Remember the Ovtschinnikov Kovsh story - at least 6 pieces worldwide in circulation - and still no end - although countless people have seen them and had been warned. Let me say it in my way: If you are accustomed to drink from plastic cups and eat your pizza out of the delivery carton - than the everywhere shown false objects are unbelievable for you. The stereotyp saying: "How can they be faked? Look at that quality! It is pure silver!"
When will people (customers) realise that there is a strong and criminal industry working hand in hand with auction houses and online auctions - making big, I repeat big money? And it is not only Russian silver... ...
Ask high end watch collectors who collected for 30 years and more, knowing every facette of their hobby - and are afraid know to buy - because the fakes are so well made, that you must send them back to the manufacturer to know what you realy have.Reason: quick big money - industrially made!
Regards
Postnikov
you told me that you had seen the coffee/tea set we speak about in that auction house. Do you had the chance to inspect it more closely (on the days where visitors are allowed to inspect the objects)? If yes - how did the marks look on the different lids and on the salver? Have they looked like the by oel shown marks (3 separate part marks), identic or different? Or have you only admired it from the distance? (please do not feel attacked, I just want to know, if you have seen something that would strengthen or cancel our doubts).
When I remember right, I saw this "medal mark" 3 or 4 years ago the first time - on obvious fakes. We both know that there are hundreds of Sazikov´s objects flooding the market - the quality ranges from super ugly to normal ugly. Remember the Ovtschinnikov Kovsh story - at least 6 pieces worldwide in circulation - and still no end - although countless people have seen them and had been warned. Let me say it in my way: If you are accustomed to drink from plastic cups and eat your pizza out of the delivery carton - than the everywhere shown false objects are unbelievable for you. The stereotyp saying: "How can they be faked? Look at that quality! It is pure silver!"
When will people (customers) realise that there is a strong and criminal industry working hand in hand with auction houses and online auctions - making big, I repeat big money? And it is not only Russian silver... ...
Ask high end watch collectors who collected for 30 years and more, knowing every facette of their hobby - and are afraid know to buy - because the fakes are so well made, that you must send them back to the manufacturer to know what you realy have.Reason: quick big money - industrially made!
Regards
Postnikov
Re: Firm of Sazikov
Hi!
Unfortunately I have not seen the tea/coffee set so there was a missunderstanding. We are all dependent on this one picture, therefore I guess we don't get any further than this as it is difficult to make any futher conclusions.
I am happy with the discussions, even that there are sometimes differencies in opinions. I appreciate your long experience and you can give very valuable information on this forum. I just want to know how the things actually have been with these markings, somethings I might not see it and somethings I might see it differently.
I don't see any logic with the usage of this award mark by fakers in all cases but everything is of course possible.
That I can say that I don't eat pizzas or drink from plastic cups, silver I purchase also for usage. :)
Regards,
Juke
Unfortunately I have not seen the tea/coffee set so there was a missunderstanding. We are all dependent on this one picture, therefore I guess we don't get any further than this as it is difficult to make any futher conclusions.
I am happy with the discussions, even that there are sometimes differencies in opinions. I appreciate your long experience and you can give very valuable information on this forum. I just want to know how the things actually have been with these markings, somethings I might not see it and somethings I might see it differently.
I don't see any logic with the usage of this award mark by fakers in all cases but everything is of course possible.
That I can say that I don't eat pizzas or drink from plastic cups, silver I purchase also for usage. :)
Regards,
Juke
Re: Firm of Sazikov
Please do not forget that in some thread some days ago, anyway, related to this topic, that in one of my source books I mentioned that I saw an English duty mark (sovereign's head queen Victoria) in connection with Sazikov's trade mark. At first glance I thought it was the duty mark because it is only a soot mark. I remember mentioning that I changed my mind and stated that it is this 1851 award medal with Victoria and Albert. This mark is showed in connection with Valentin Sazikov 1856-1877 and shows also the court supplier mark in a round shield above "СÐЗИКОВЪ" . Below the name is this medal mark. The book is written in 1951 meaning that already then the medal mark has existed. What that means is ------- well maybe it's better that everyone draws his own conclusions
Have a nice evening
Qrt.S
PS It is an unfortunate fact that there is a lot of fakes circulating on the market. It is not a question of belief but I still like to believe that everything is not faked...
Have a nice evening
Qrt.S
PS It is an unfortunate fact that there is a lot of fakes circulating on the market. It is not a question of belief but I still like to believe that everything is not faked...
Re: Firm of Sazikov
Hi Juke -
this plastic cup and pizza thing was no personal allusion (I am very sorry if it sounded like that!) - I refered to the American market.
What wonders me most is that our Russian friends are not much interested/able to enlighten the different controversies. They must know - it is their silver and their past!
Hi Qrt.S -
There is always the possibility that we do not know what realy happened. We unfortunately have no access to Russian archives and museums or the knowledge of serious collectors. It seems that the Russian collecters I know have the same problems as we.
What I think about is: I have seen and touched thousands of pieces and this made me in no way immune against fakes - but certain things I never have seen! Several of the many Court jewellers got next to Sazikov the highest prices (gold medals). Khlebnikov, Ovtschinnikov and Gustav Klingert as example (frenetic concurrents at that time) - but those three never used medals in their marks! Normal or is something wrong? If you are a famous and wealthy silversmith and want to proudly expand your trade mark for a medal - do you just punch a medal somwhere (left, right, middle) next to your mark? Or would you proudly alter your old punch by a new one?
There are several silversmiths who used medals in their firmlogo - but the stamp was a onepiece stamp - and the medals were from All Russian Exhibitions - not from World Exhibitions
in London or Chicago. To get a gold medal from a World Exhibition was realy something very, very prestigious!!
I think after seeing a certain mark again and again - one believe it must be correct - even if it is not - because there is no sense in it - exept to make an object more trustworthy and more expensive. Just my 5 cents!
Here some wellknown "medal marks" from silver smiths
Some paper mache´marks from Visnjakov
And some "later" Sazikov marks
Please note the eagle mark (form)
Regards
Postnikov
this plastic cup and pizza thing was no personal allusion (I am very sorry if it sounded like that!) - I refered to the American market.
What wonders me most is that our Russian friends are not much interested/able to enlighten the different controversies. They must know - it is their silver and their past!
Hi Qrt.S -
There is always the possibility that we do not know what realy happened. We unfortunately have no access to Russian archives and museums or the knowledge of serious collectors. It seems that the Russian collecters I know have the same problems as we.
What I think about is: I have seen and touched thousands of pieces and this made me in no way immune against fakes - but certain things I never have seen! Several of the many Court jewellers got next to Sazikov the highest prices (gold medals). Khlebnikov, Ovtschinnikov and Gustav Klingert as example (frenetic concurrents at that time) - but those three never used medals in their marks! Normal or is something wrong? If you are a famous and wealthy silversmith and want to proudly expand your trade mark for a medal - do you just punch a medal somwhere (left, right, middle) next to your mark? Or would you proudly alter your old punch by a new one?
There are several silversmiths who used medals in their firmlogo - but the stamp was a onepiece stamp - and the medals were from All Russian Exhibitions - not from World Exhibitions
in London or Chicago. To get a gold medal from a World Exhibition was realy something very, very prestigious!!
I think after seeing a certain mark again and again - one believe it must be correct - even if it is not - because there is no sense in it - exept to make an object more trustworthy and more expensive. Just my 5 cents!
Here some wellknown "medal marks" from silver smiths
Some paper mache´marks from Visnjakov
And some "later" Sazikov marks
Please note the eagle mark (form)
Regards
Postnikov
Re: Firm of Sazikov
Hi!
It is good to remember that after the International Exposition in London in 1851 Sazikov became very famous throughout Europe (on the same level as the best firms in the west) and was the first Russian firm began to receive orders from foreign countries. Maybe this export idea is possible ... but better not debate without more knowledge.
Interesting pictures of Sazikov marks by you Postnikov from the period. Note even that PL has noted a circular Court jewellers mark with the Sazikov mark in the book (there must be something that was found).
It was just a light joke from my part (pizza etc.).
Regards,
Juke
It is good to remember that after the International Exposition in London in 1851 Sazikov became very famous throughout Europe (on the same level as the best firms in the west) and was the first Russian firm began to receive orders from foreign countries. Maybe this export idea is possible ... but better not debate without more knowledge.
Interesting pictures of Sazikov marks by you Postnikov from the period. Note even that PL has noted a circular Court jewellers mark with the Sazikov mark in the book (there must be something that was found).
It was just a light joke from my part (pizza etc.).
Regards,
Juke
Re: Firm of Sazikov
Hi Postnikov,
Forgive me if I have misunderstood what you meant but, are you saying that the double headed imperial eagle was never in a circular cartouche, and that the cartouche was always the shape of the eagle?
Or is this only the case with Sazikov? Or only the case with Sazikov in Moscow?
I am a little confused now.
Regards,
Piette
Forgive me if I have misunderstood what you meant but, are you saying that the double headed imperial eagle was never in a circular cartouche, and that the cartouche was always the shape of the eagle?
Or is this only the case with Sazikov? Or only the case with Sazikov in Moscow?
I am a little confused now.
Regards,
Piette
Re: Firm of Sazikov
Hi Piette -
I have only authentic marks of Sazikov´s firm in Moscow. As I have no own authentic marks from St.Petersburg, I do not know for sure how Sazikov marked there with the eagle mark. I trust very much in P-L , so maybe the St. Petersburg mark is eagle in circle. Maybe some experts show us some authentic marks from St. Petersburg... Than we know more - or not.
Regards
Postnikov
I have only authentic marks of Sazikov´s firm in Moscow. As I have no own authentic marks from St.Petersburg, I do not know for sure how Sazikov marked there with the eagle mark. I trust very much in P-L , so maybe the St. Petersburg mark is eagle in circle. Maybe some experts show us some authentic marks from St. Petersburg... Than we know more - or not.
Regards
Postnikov
Re: Firm of Sazikov
piette wrote:Hi Postnikov,
Forgive me if I have misunderstood what you meant but, are you saying that the double headed imperial eagle was never in a circular cartouche, and that the cartouche was always the shape of the eagle?
Or is this only the case with Sazikov? Or only the case with Sazikov in Moscow?
I am a little confused now.
Regards,
Piette
Bravo Piette. It's the very correct remark. Cartouche was always the shape of the eagle from Sazikov from Moscow. Circular cartouche is for Petersburg.
Re: Firm of Sazikov
Hi Juke -
The 3 Sazikov marks I showed were from 1856, 1861 and 1868 - 5 , 10 and 17 years after Sazikov received the medal - but no medal mark!
The authentic mark Ivan showed is from 1869 - 18 years after Sazikov received the medal - but no medal mark!
The 2 fakemarks 1857 and 1876 - 6 and 18 years after Sazikov received the mesal - with medal stamp!
I do not understand the system!
Regards
Postnikov
The 3 Sazikov marks I showed were from 1856, 1861 and 1868 - 5 , 10 and 17 years after Sazikov received the medal - but no medal mark!
The authentic mark Ivan showed is from 1869 - 18 years after Sazikov received the medal - but no medal mark!
The 2 fakemarks 1857 and 1876 - 6 and 18 years after Sazikov received the mesal - with medal stamp!
I do not understand the system!
Regards
Postnikov
Re: Firm of Sazikov
Hi Dad -
I am sure you have/can get some authentic Sazikov marks from St. Petersburg. Please be so kind and post them to show us if there is a difference in marking between the two towns. That would realy help!
Regards
Postnikov
I am sure you have/can get some authentic Sazikov marks from St. Petersburg. Please be so kind and post them to show us if there is a difference in marking between the two towns. That would realy help!
Regards
Postnikov
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