RED PATINA ON SILVER ?

[ARGENTUM49]

Have you ever seen RED PATINA on silver? The brass would tarnish red if exposed to polluted air.
Delta (Moscow, Nizgorod or Tula, 1908 - 1926). Only ``BД`` I know of is for Vasilii Dmitriev (Moscow 1871 — 1886)

Ivan

[piette]

Hi Argentum49,
Here is a link to your image: http://img208.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=84974_432871820_o_122_418lo.jpg
In my opinion, the red patina which you describe here is simply a reflection from what is in the background whilst the photo is being taken. Not brass, or any other metal.
Regards,
Piette

[ARGENTUM49]

Thanks a lot for opening the pic! There was a problem with ImageVenue posting.
I agree, everything else seems OK with the hallmarks, although the craftmanship is not perfect.I was simply confused with the red color and was curious about the possibilty that silver can tarnish red. That is not possible.Regards,
Ivan

[ARGENTUM49]

Hello again Piette,
Now the second pic is posted.Did you do it or it took time for the server to post it ?
Ivan

[2209patrick]

Hello ARGENTUM49.

I downsized your first picture and added the mark image to your first post.
No, the server did not post it.

Pat.

[ARGENTUM49]

Thanks a lot - so it was to big.
Ivan

[Postnikov]

Hi ARGENTUM49 -

The cigarette case is a rather crude sand cast. What the main material is I can not see from here. I think it is copper on brass and than silverplated - the reason why you see brass and copper on the worn places. The uneven wear results in the newness of the case. Cigarette cases of this kind never exists before 1917. Only brass for naval personell (saltwater!).
The 3 known marks of ВД are shown here:



There are some eklatant differences!



As you might read, ВД only made teespoons - no cigarette cases. He worked in Moscow (delta) not in Nizgorod?? (Nishninovgorod??) or Tula. All this towns had own townmarks: Please be more precise.
Now make your own conclusions.

Regards
Postnikov

[Qrt.S]

??? There is no connection whatsoever between Vasilij Dimitriev 1871-1886 and the showed mark. How could it. The Kokosnik was in use 1908-1927 and not only to 1926. By that time Dimitriev was probably already dead and buried. However, there are some more masters that marked ВД. A name that caught my eye is Vasilij Nikolajevitsh Dominin who used the assay office in Moscow but had his business in Nizhni Novgorod around 1914. Since ARGENTU49 is mentioned Nizgorod, whatever place that is?, I anticipate the you mean Nizhni Novgorod.

But the big BUT is, that it seems to that the case is plated. If that is the case something is badly wrong. A plated item can under no circumstances carry a silver indicating kokoshnik mark. Is there other marks, where and how do they look like? Could you show them please?

[ARGENTUM49]

This is not my item; I have pics only, so I cannot tell more. I posted it only for the sake of better understanding how silver behaves under different conditions when exposed to chemicals or polluted air. Still, I have never seen red patina on silver, it turns red only when tested, but that is a different situation. The craftsmanship is poor, I agree.
Regarding ``kokoshink`` with delta (1908 — 1926) the exact description is: ``Московское пробирное управление, нижегородскии и тульскии губернские пробирерьи`` (Meaning that delta was used for assaying in Moscow, Nizni Novgorod and Tula). This is of less importance, but good to know; the point is that silver cannot tarnish red under normal circumstances.
By the way, without opening a new post this is the answer for the previous discussion I noticed reviewing earlier posts: The picture tells more than I can comment and the book is Russian.

[piette]

Hi,
Doesn't this mean that items from Tula, Nizni and Novgorod were sent to Moscow for hallmarking as opposed to having assay offices of their own? I think this is most likely.
My opinion again - I believe that the redness in areas on the photo is actually reflected from the surroundings when the photo was taken. I don't think this item could be silver plate.
Also, which question are you referring to in regards to the St Petersburg marks?
Regards,
Piette

[Qrt.S]

Ivan, do me a favor and read what I state the right looking kokoshnik was used as from 1908 to 22.6.1927 not 1926, thank you.

Anyway, it is correct what you state about the delta mark and you could expand it by saying that Odessa's Kappa was also used in Jekaterinoslav, Kiev's Ni also in Harkov, Transkaukasian Omikron in Baku, Vilnius Pi in Kowensk, Kasan's Ypsilon in Jekaterinburg and Saratov and Don's Hi in Astrachan and Tersk. This is the complete list and good to know in case you stumble into makers marks that seem to be in contradiction with where the maker was located. But as said, this is no big deal.

About this С.P.БУРГЪ and С.P:БУРГЪ etc. marks. The problem with these marks is that A.I. Ivanov claims that they would be maker's marks which is a bit hard to believe. There is no actual direct proves to my knowledge.

[ARGENTUM49]

1.It may be a genuine item (having in mind gilded interior) with faked hallmarks. The master we found must have been already dead by the time.The case is on sale (but we do not discuss commercial sites, do we ?). I do not want to be warned again.The seller has attached several enameled badges and even a gold coin of unknown origin (none of them is Russian!), probably Denmark names, and it has already reached a substantial bidding price as ``Russian silver and gold cigarette case``. Though, I have not seen silvered brass cases.I was only suspicious about the color and thought that, as seen in the arrows I added the silver - plate is worn and the base metal - brass tarnished to red patina.
2.As far I understood the Russian text - the silver was not sent to Moscow but assayed by local assayers in Tula and Nizni Novgorod.
3.Regarding St.Petersburg marks - I reviewed one of previous posts and your discussion about the hallmark С.П. БУРГЬ.This is the answer:
There was that city mark with Ьletter at the end or the book is wrong - it is a Russian book anyway.If Ivanov is right about it being the maker`s mark, what about the full name of the city with the same ending letter ?

Ivan

[Qrt.S]

1) No comments

2) It is correct. Nizhni Novogorod had assayers at that time i.e. Ivan Kartashev and Stepan Iovlev and in Tula was Aleksandr Golenkin and Vladislav Zholtsinskij.

3) Well, is this С.П. БУРГЬ a town mark or a maker's mark is a difficult question. There are differing opinions about that. I don't know, but I find it very unlike that it would be a maker's mark even if the possibility exists.