is this real Fabergé

[mylosilver]

Hi all,

I have been reading through a fair few topics discussing fabergé items.

I do not wish to cause any drama with this post as all i want to do is verify whether an item i own is faux or not=)

I wont tell you how much was paid but maybe you can help identify its past.

Thank You All and Merry Christmas.

[mylosilver]

hi again,

I forgot to add another set of hallmarks which you can see at the top of the inside.


thanks

[piette]

Hi and welcome to the forums,
Are these the only two sets of hallmarks on the item?
Regards,
Piette

[mylosilver]

yes piette

thank you for reply

[piette]

Hi,
In my opinion this item is most probably a fake.
Items such as cigarette cases are made of more than one piece. In this case - the two halves of the cigarette case.
All of the individual pieces on an object had to be hallmarked seperately which yours isn't.
Regards,
Piette

[piette]

Another point to add - Faberge items were mostly (if not always?) made in 88 zolotniki silver (higher grade silver) whereas yours is made in 84 zolotniki silver.
Regards,
Piette

[Postnikov]

Hi -
your Cigarette case is in Russian style but made in Finland. Through the close neighbourhood the use of Russian styles was dayly praxis - this style is called "sunburst" pattern.

The Finish marks from left to right: JVA = the maker, the crown = for local production, 813H = silvercontent 830, E3 =Yearletter 1862, W = Townmark Vipuri
The Russian marks from left to right: Kokoshnik 1908-17(26) , 84 sivercontent= 875, Mark of Fabergé Moscow - these marks are fake marks and total nonsense!

Conclusion: a very nice silver cigarette case in sunburst design, yellow gold (14k) mounted (real) blue saphire as thumbpiece, in acceptable condition for the age. Nice find!

Regards

[mylosilver]

thank you so much for your information.

I have had my doubts on the item.

the finnish maker however is Johan victor aarne. When i wiki his name it says he worked for Fabergé for many years.

Could you please if this has any significance on the item?

Once again you have all been great=)

[mylosilver]

Oh the mark is E5 not E3. I know the image does not do it justice. I think E5 means 1910

[piette]

Hi,
A little background on the maker, Johan Victor Aarne.

1863 - Born in Finland
1880-1890 - Worked in August Holmstrom's workshop (August Holmstrom was a Faberge workmaster at the time - Aarne would not have been able to put his own mark on any items as he was not a master yet.)
1890 - Returned to Finland and became a Master
1890-1891 - Ran his own workshop in Finland
1891-1904 - Worked as a Faberge Workmaster with the mark ВА in cyrillic.
1904 - Returned to Finland
1904-1934 - Ran his own gold workshop in Finland with the mark JVA (which can be seen on your item)

Your cigarette case fits into the 1904-1934 date and has the correct mark for Aarne at this time.
A nice item, made in 1910 by Johan Victor Aarne in his Finnish workshop.

Have a Merry Christmas,
Regards,
Piette

[mylosilver]

i have some more information from browsing through this great site that might help in further discussion.

The "E5" mark for 1910 and the Kokoshnik mark seem to have a connection.

When i look closely to the 84 and the letters of the head i can make out the second letter to be a capital C.

From this websites list of Kokoshniks i am pretty certain the one stamped on this item is that of "I.Sorotkin" which is marked as being "Odessa-1899-1910"

I think the 1910 is of significance here as 1910 seems to be the latest Kokoshnik of this type according to this sites list.


I am finding the research quite exciting=)

thank you.

[mylosilver]

Thank you Piette.


I am wondering now then why there is such a Fabergé mark?

Surely this item is worth a nice penny coming from Aarne without the Fabergé mark.

I can imagine the item was bought by someone of wealth at the time also.

I know this item belonged to a wealthy american from long island. He possibly purchased item in 1910?

So would this item have slipped into the hands of a forger who for some reason tried to mimic Fabergé mark?

Once again exciting stuff.

[piette]

Hi,
As we have recently learned thanks to Qrt.S, Faberge did have a workshop in Odessa although it was only in existence between 1900-1903 so we can rule out anything here.

The kokoshnik mark on your item was only used 1899-1908 and was then replaced with a different kokoshnik mark.

I agree about the assayer on the mark - it certainly looks to me like I. Sorotkin of Odessa although as I have said, this mark was not used after 1908 and your item was made in 1910 so as far as I am concerned, it is a fake mark.

It is most likely that this item has fallen into the wrong hands somewhere along the way and has been given extra marks in the hopes of escelating the value.

Whoever put the fake marks on the item did not do their research, the dates and cities don't match up at all.

Regards,
Piette

[mylosilver]

exactly what i am thinking.

But there is still something strange.

Firstly: The Kokoshnik mark and Fabergé mark seem to be far more worn than the Finnish marks.

Secondly the "W" at the end of the Finnish marks is an import mark no? Meaning that the case came from somewhere else?

Otherwise the case should not have a "W" if it was made in Finland.

Thank You once again for your contributions.

I have a nice collection of silver and just trying to put them all in their right place at the moment.

[piette]

Hi,

It is possible that that whoever faked the marks did they in such a way to look old and worn to try and fool prospective buyers.

I am not sure about the Finnish importers mark, but all the other Finnish marks are good - It is equally possible that the faker added the Finnish impossible mark.

I think it is probably safe to stick to the conclusion that what you have here is a nice Silver and Gold cigarette case, with a Sapphire thumbpiece - made by Johan Victor Aarne in Finnland in 1910.

Regards,
Piette

[piette]

I am not sure about the Finnish importers mark, but all the other Finnish marks are good - It is equally possible that the faker added the Finnish impossible mark.

Sorry - this should read the Finnish import mark at the end of the sentence.
Also - I have just re-read what Postnikov said before: W = Townmark for Vipuri, not an import mark.

Regards,
Piette

[Dad]

Hi, Mylosilver.

"Kokoshnik" and «faberge» is fake marks. Bad work. But if it looked as the original marks, anyway:
These marks can't be together on one subject in 1900-1917.
Finland during this period — territory of the Russian Empire, but with the big sovereignty and the own hallmarks. Subjects with the Finnish marks never weren't marked by the Russian marks ("kokoshnik").

Best Reg. and Merry Christmas!

[mylosilver]

ah yes so the "W" is not an import mark.

Well then it makes perfect sense to assume the item was indeed made in 1910 by Aarne.


I still find it funny though that this item was given a fake Faberge mark when the item was actually made by a Faberge work master just a few years after he moved home.

Do all items in the Faberge workshops go through a screening process after each maker has made the item and then stamped with Faberge "standard" mark by another person? If not then does the maker stamp the Faberge mark himself?

If i was Aarne and knew the value of the Faberge mark i would have maybe brought a stamp home=) (insert some laughs here)


It really is a quality piece of silver thought and knowing it was made by a Faberge master is quite fine in my books even if the stamp is not real.

thank you for your help.

I shall be visiting this site more often=)

[piette]

Hi,

Yes - whoever added the mark would have known that Aarne was a Faberge workmaster, but just gotten the dates wrong.

As for your question about when the Faberge mark was added to an item - I do not know... I would assume that they weren't added by the Masters though I may be wrong! It is not something I have ever considered. If you look through books, you will see that there are quite a few different Fabergé marks around which were used in different Towns.

Fabergé's Moscow Marks:

Signature of Fabergé in Moscow (always K.ФАБЕЗЖЕ - always with the Imperial Eagle (court jeweller´s sign!!) Normaly Fabergé objects made in Moscow are always without the mark of a master.

Fabergé's St. Petersburg Marks:

The Fabergé marks for St. Petersburg look like that:



Fabergé´s signature with initials (KФ) is often found on St. Petersburg workpieces of the workmasters Nevalainen and Rappoport !!!!

(Both of those with a little extra info from Postnikov!)

Regards,
Piette

[mylosilver]

Yes it would be quite strange if the masters did stamp their own works with the "fabergé" stamp as it would not seem proper.

Surely each piece of work would be meticulously scrutinized and scrapped if it was not perfect.

I would imagine the head of the workshop would check and stamp all items made.


I have one last question=)


What do the initials read on the front???

I am very bad with initials but would like to know.