Klingert vs. Saltykov

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piette
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Klingert vs. Saltykov

Postby piette » Sun Dec 05, 2010 10:09 am

Hi,
I understand that Klingerts 'signature style' is the turquoise-blue enamel covering with the twisted silver wires in the shape of swirls throughout. I am also aware that Saltykov did this pattern also.
From looking at pieces, I have found a pattern arising, it seems that Klingert pieces in this style have the 'small swirls' layed out randomly on the object in the first picture whereas in Saltykov pieces, the small swirls are arranged into slightly larger swirls as can be seen in the second picture.
Is this always the case? Or am I mistaken?
If this is always the case, does this mean that items with a pattern like that in picture two, that also bear a 'Klingert' makers mark are most likely fakes, or Saltykov items that have had the makers mark changed to a more famous maker?

Picture 1:
Image

Picture 2:
Image

I hope this question makes sense.
Regards,
Piette

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Re: Klingert vs. Saltykov

Postby piette » Sun Dec 05, 2010 10:11 am

Just to add, the items in the pictures are not mine - but I have permission to use pictures.

Postnikov
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Re: Klingert vs. Saltykov

Postby Postnikov » Sun Dec 05, 2010 1:41 pm

Hi piette -
enamel clausonné is not so easy to understand - some artists have a "signature style" (Klingert, Rückert, Agafonov, Khlebnikov, Ovtschinnikov, Semjonova, some Artels and Sazikov etc.) others not so prominent. Some you can recognice by the pattern, some on the quality - There were thousands of different patterns - some used always the same colours. Others took a more brilliant enamel - some shaded the enamel always, some never. You must have very great experience to distinguish all the masters on their pattern without looking first on the marks.

To your photos: If enamel look mostly like that, than it is very dubious. Only Sazikov used larger portions of turquoise but seldom used twisted wires - just plain wires. (Have a look at: The beauty of Russian silver, cigarette case by Sazikov)! The reason why enamel cloisonné was so "hype" at that time was not big areas in one colour but hundreds of different cells in different translucent colours.

Here some detail photos from Klingert and Saltykov enamel:

Image Klingert

Image Klingert

Image Klingert

Image Saltykov

To show you the real beauty of enamel cloisonné and the different patterns of differen masters:

Image

Explanation:
(First row from left)

I. Saltykov, I.Saltykov, I. Saltykov (no signature style!!).

(second row from left)

I. Khlebnikov, I. Sazikov (larger fields in turqois, no twisted wires!), 11th Artel (read article about Artels, what they made, which colours they used etc. on this forum!).

(third row from left)

unnknown master V.L (cyrillic), 20th Artel, Fedor Rückert with the stamp of O. Kurlyukov (he is the vendor!).

Regards
Postnikov

piette
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Re: Klingert vs. Saltykov

Postby piette » Sun Dec 05, 2010 3:32 pm

Hi Postnikov,
Thank you for all of your information and wonderful pictures! It were a joy to see such beautiful items :-)
It would seem that there is a lot of bad information floating around other websites about Gustav Klingert... I am glad I have now heard the truth.

I have a question for you - in your response you posted a picture of an 11th Artel cigarette case. Having read the article on this forum about the Artels I see that the 11th Artel's known merchandise did not include cigarette cases.
Am I correct in thinking that just because something is on that list of known merchandise it does not mean that the 11th Artel didn't make any of that type of item? For example, the 11th Artel could have made small Stopka's etc. even though there aren't any on that list, and even though they aren't known for making those items?

Regards,
Piette

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Re: Klingert vs. Saltykov

Postby Postnikov » Sun Dec 05, 2010 4:15 pm

Hi piette -
the 11th Artel made many, many silver objects - small ones and larger ones. In my list I just listed some known merchandise to give the reader an idea what they made. This list is by no means complete! For your files you can ad: cigarette cases. Nearly every better smith made cigarette cases.

A little Quiz to test and deepen your present knowledge:

What is this?

Image Image

Answer A: an early Communistic cloth jewel in silver, appropriate marked according to the law of May 7th 1958, presented to members of the Olymic team, silver medal
Answer B: a simple silverplated snuffbox with fakemarks and without assay mark
Answer C: a cheap plastic, silver painted Christmas tree gadget used in January for the Russian Christmas/New Year?
Answer D: a from the class enemy imported poison flacon for female secrete agents
Answer E: a camouflaged "speed bottle" from Medelin

The right answer get more private lessons for free!

Regards
Postnikov

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Re: Klingert vs. Saltykov

Postby Qrt.S » Sun Dec 05, 2010 4:20 pm

I haven't been particularly interested in cloisonnee but now you made me dear Postnikov. I find this fascinating indeed. Thank you for explaining the technique to us readers.
However, mind my asking but is to be understood that in Russian cloisonnee the cells are usually (always?) separated with twisted wires except for some work of Sazikov who mainly used plain wires, or do I misunderstand something here?

In the thread "The beauty of authentic Russian objects you show a cigarette case with a blue enameled area in the center and made by Sazikow. Could you show a big close up photo of the blue area, thank you. Alternatively the same for the box in the middle in this thread, thank you in advance for you kind co-operation in this matter of great interest.

Have a nice evening

Qrt.S

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Re: Klingert vs. Saltykov

Postby Qrt.S » Sun Dec 05, 2010 4:23 pm

Yeahhhh! The answer to your question is alternative C

Rgds

Qrt.S

piette
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Re: Klingert vs. Saltykov

Postby piette » Sun Dec 05, 2010 5:11 pm

Postnikov wrote:What is this?

Image Image

Answer A: an early Communistic cloth jewel in silver, appropriate marked according to the law of May 7th 1958, presented to members of the Olymic team, silver medal
Answer B: a simple silverplated snuffbox with fakemarks and without assay mark
Answer C: a cheap plastic, silver painted Christmas tree gadget used in January for the Russian Christmas/New Year?
Answer D: a from the class enemy imported poison flacon for female secrete agents
Answer E: a camouflaged "speed bottle" from Medelin

The right answer get more private lessons for free!

Regards
Postnikov


Is the right answer...

Answer A: an early Communistic cloth jewel in silver, appropriate marked according to the law of May 7th 1958, presented to members of the Olymic team, silver medal

I say this because of the hammer and sickle on the decoration. (Although it does look a quite like answer C I think! But that seems like too much of an obvious answer..)

Also, thank you for this information about the 11th Artel (I have a particular interest in them) and also about the cigarette cases. I agree with Qrt.S, I would love to see a close up image of the Sazikov cigarette case which you pictured above.

Did Sazikov use non-twisted wires on all of his items, or just the ones with large areas of blue enamel?

Regards,
Piette

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Re: Klingert vs. Saltykov

Postby Postnikov » Sun Dec 05, 2010 5:32 pm

Hi Qrt.S - Answer C is wrong - please watch the details more - no private lessons :_)!
Hi piette - Answer A is the right answer - you won - private lessons!

I made a mistake! The cells are always made out of twisted wires, sometimes the thickness changes - smaller wires look finer and more elegant - it depends on the maker. I would say: The better the maker, the better the thin wires. The mentioned Sazikov cases are like all others - in my eyes several parts of the wires were polished more than others - therefore without loupe they look like plain wires - but they are twisted and polished more. You can see that on the magnification.

Image Sazikov 01

Image Sazikov 02 Image Sazikov 03

Image Khlebnikov 01 Image Khlebnikov 02

Regards
Postnikov

piette
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Re: Klingert vs. Saltykov

Postby piette » Sun Dec 05, 2010 6:00 pm

Hi Postnikov,
I'm glad I got the answer right :-) (And a little bit surprised too!)
Thank you for posting the close up pictures of your cases - they are very beautiful.
It is interesting to see the twisted wires - is there any easy way to tell the difference between the twisted wires and the galvano cast items?
I understand that the top of the wires can sometimes look flat due to polishing, is this correct?
Would it be correct to say that the sides of the wires will look twisted even if the tops of the wires look flat?

Regards,
Piette

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Re: Klingert vs. Saltykov

Postby Postnikov » Sun Dec 05, 2010 6:44 pm

Hi piette -
please read the forum, where real and fake wires were shown by photos. But here again: as there are cells with room between the other cells (pattern!) you can have a look sidewards on the wires. If they are really twisted - authentic. If they look like palisades (without twist) - fake! But allways inspect with a loupe on different spots, front and back - so you can detect enamel loss too - which is in a certain amount tolerable (120 years or more), it depends on your taste. The tops are polished , but not so much that the twisted wires "look" is lost. Personally I think, polishing this wires so that they look plain was used sometimes on some parts of the pattern, to give the object a different look. I can see that on several cases in my posession (imagination?) but to be 100% sure one has to see some hundreds of different masters.

Here a quick simplyfied scetch to show the differents (angle!).

Image

Regards
Postnikov

Qrt.S
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Re: Klingert vs. Saltykov

Postby Qrt.S » Mon Dec 06, 2010 4:17 am

Congatulations piette and well done......however, I'm a bit skeptical abut this being a decoration for a dress. What woman would hang such sh^t as jewel on her dress I wonder, I really do??? I will probably revert to this later after doing some invetigations... I still think it is for the Christmas tree, at least the hang up system is very similar to being on such a decoration, we'll see...

Nevertheless, I'm very grateful to you Postinkov for this lesson in cloisonne technique even if I wont get private lessons ;-))). Thank you, very interesting case indeed.

Have a nice day

Qrt.S

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Re: Klingert vs. Saltykov

Postby Postnikov » Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:15 am

Hi Qrt.S -

I know that you are a little angry - you always want to win - "life is cruel but very just!" always said my grandmother....
But think positive: we always give private lessons to each other - that is what counts!

Today is Santa Claus - be careful and prepare some poems for him, otherwise...

Regards
Postnikov

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Re: Klingert vs. Saltykov

Postby Postnikov » Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:26 pm

Hi all -

if there is interest in the different Russian enamel techniques besides enamel clausonné (enamel chamlevé, enamel plique a jour, enamel painting) I will explain them with photos and details.

Just let me know.

Regards
Postnikov

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Re: Klingert vs. Saltykov

Postby dognose » Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:48 pm

Hi Postnikov,

We have the basics of the various techniques here http://www.925-1000.com/silverglossary2.html, but any improvements, explanations or additions would be most welcome and hopefully maybe sometime in the future used to update and improve the Glossary.

If you could start a new thread, in 'Contributors Notes' would be best, then that would be great.

Regards Trev.

piette
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Re: Klingert vs. Saltykov

Postby piette » Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:49 pm

Postnikov wrote:Hi all -

if there is interest in the different Russian enamel techniques besides enamel clausonné (enamel chamlevé, enamel plique a jour, enamel painting) I will explain them with photos and details.

Just let me know.

Regards
Postnikov


Hi Postnikov,
Thank you for this offer - and the information about the twisted wires.
I would be quite interested to know how about enamel plique a jour and the enamel painting. In plique a jour, how did they manage to enamel without and surface to enamel to?
I am also quite intersted in the Niello items - is this actually enamel?
Regards,
Piette

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Re: Klingert vs. Saltykov

Postby Postnikov » Mon Dec 06, 2010 2:41 pm

Hi piette -

The article "Different enamel techniques in Russian silver" you will find in "Contributors´Notes" on this forum as suggested by dognose. It will take awhile...

Here the answer to your question about niello:

Niello (lat. nigellus = blackly) is a decorating technique for objects in silver or gold. This technique was already known in Egypt and Mykene since the 16th ct. It is the effect of the colour contrast between the metall ground and the with a special mass filled decoration (pattern). To make a niello decoration the silversmith (artist) had to do the following: First he sratches (engrave) or etch the wanted decoration (pattern) into the surface and than filled it with the prepared special mass. This mass consists of: silver, copper, lead, sulphur and borax. The mass is melted in an oven and after refrigarated slowly. Than the finework starts - the surface is grinded and polished. This grinding was a very unhealthy job (lead dust in the lungs!!) and the workers never get very old.
The niello technique is sometimes called "Tula silver" after the Russian town Tula, where most of the objects were made.

Here some examples:

Image several cigarette cases

Image a cigarillo case

Image a match safe

Regards
Postnikov

piette
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Re: Klingert vs. Saltykov

Postby piette » Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:00 pm

Postnikov wrote:Image


Hi Postnikov -
Just a quick question. Are the cigarette cases pictured above all from your collection?
Regards,
Piette

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Re: Klingert vs. Saltykov

Postby Postnikov » Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:23 pm

Hi Piette -

answer: NO :-)

Regards
Postnikov


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