Russian Spoon hallmarks

[piette]

Just a brief intro:
I am aged 16 and have been buying and selling antique English silver for a while now and as a result developed an interest in Russian silver enamel items. I have been using profits to buy Russian silver items although I am aware there are a lot of fakes around. I also do not know a great deal about the items that I have bought so I will list them all below, with pictures and details of what I do know in the hope that someone will be able to tell me more about them, and if any of them are fake! I have tried to be careful when buying - I know some ways to spot fakes.

Spoon 1:
Infor: 11th Artel, Moscow, 1908-1926
Picture: http://curioushouse.co.uk/russiansilvercollection/Spoon1.jpg

(admin edit - see Posting Requirements - Only one item per topic )


Thank you in advance for any information you can offer on wether these are real or not, and if they are about their makers and dates!

[Postnikov]

Hi -


11th Artel
11A,
11MA, 11M.A.
After 1908

Working mostly with enamel cloisonné but also in plique-a-jour and the guilloché techniques.
Tea/coffee spoons, tea/coffee service sets, kovshi, sugar spoons and tea strainers.

One of the most famous ones, enamel, cloisonné and guilloche, high quality silver objects, in class with court suppliers’ work. Fabergés’s supplier.

Traditional style, complete enamel covering, art nouveau influence with triangular and rectangular enamel cells, volutes.
Spirals, silver beads, green ochre, violet- and-cream tints in a hazy “water-colour” style

The marks, enamelcolours and quality are wrong. This are no twisted wires, soldered to the bowl and enamelled later; this are galvano - plastic made spoon forms, later filled with enamel!
Fake...

Regards
Postnikov

[piette]

Traditional style, complete enamel covering, art nouveau influence with triangular and rectangular enamel cells, volutes.
Spirals, silver beads, green ochre, violet- and-cream tints in a hazy “water-colour” style

Thank you for your help.
Does this mean that all 11th Artel objects will always be completely covered with enamel?

Also, are you able to recommend any good books for improving my knowledge of Russian silver and enamel items?

Thank you.
Piette

[Postnikov]

Hi -

When I write an answer I always mean what I have to say!

If you want to dig deeper into Russian silver - why not start reading this forum (Russian silver) from the beginning? There you have many examples (photos) and a lot of advice what to do and what not. I just repeat and repeat and repeat. There are a lot of good books recommended on this site. You must learn, learn and learn. Start slow - not with enamel! Etc, etc.
When you have read all contributions, you can ask me all your questions - otherwise we don´t speak the same language.
Now start reading .....

Regards and don´t give up!
Postnikov

[dognose]

Hi Piette,

Welcome to the Forum.

You've made a great start on the Forum and we hope you'll stick around and become a longtime member.

A couple of points that may increase the responces to your posts, it would be better if you could post embedded photos rather than clickable links, some members are wary about clicking onto links that they do not recogize and thus your post may not get all the hits that they deserve.

Always give the fullest description of your items that you can, lengths, weights, anything, any detail that the photos may not reveal will assist the person that is trying to help.

And very importantly, please leave your images available for viewing forever and a day, for, as Postnikov has pointed out, former posts are a great source of information, but if the images are deleted, then these valuable resources often become meaningless.

Looking forward to your future posts.

Regards Trev.

[piette]

Hi Piette,

Welcome to the Forum.

You've made a great start on the Forum and we hope you'll stick around and become a longtime member.

A couple of points that may increase the responces to your posts, it would be better if you could post embedded photos rather than clickable links, some members are wary about clicking onto links that they do not recogize and thus your post may not get all the hits that they deserve.

Always give the fullest description of your items that you can, lengths, weights, anything, any detail that the photos may not reveal will assist the person that is trying to help.

And very importantly, please leave your images available for viewing forever and a day, for, as Postnikov has pointed out, former posts are a great source of information, but if the images are deleted, then these valuable resources often become meaningless.

Looking forward to your future posts.

Regards Trev.

Thank you for the welcome and advice!

I have updated my most recent post accordingly.

It is very interesting to read old posts on this forum and I hope to vastly improve my knowledge of Russian silver items, as I think they are really beautiful and would love to be able to accumulate a collection, without being duped by the many fakes out there.

Regards,
Piette

[piette]

Sorry to keep bringing this topic back but:

I am not questionning Postnikov in his saying that this item is a fake, I only want to ask a question about the 11th Artel in general.

Were 11th Artel objects always completely covered in enamel as you have said?
Or can they often be found with a gold stippled background?

I am just asking as, I have been looking through a auction catalog (not with the intention of buying!) and have seen an 11th Artel box which has a large gold stippled background - are the big auction houses even selling fakes unknowingly?
(admin edit)

Regards,
Piette

[Postnikov]

Hi -
normaly they are covered completely in enamel - but there is always an exeption - one has to look how, why, where!
If you post the photo of the box we can say more....
Yes - big auction houses sell fakes "unknowingly".... it seems they have no experts or they are on vacations...make your own conclusions.

On this forum is a large article about the artels - read it.

Regards
Postnikov

[Postnikov]

Hi -


11th Artel
11A,
11MA, 11M.A.
After 1908

Working mostly with enamel cloisonné but also in plique-a-jour and the guilloché techniques.
Tea/coffee spoons, tea/coffee service sets, kovshi, sugar spoons and tea strainers.

One of the most famous ones, enamel, cloisonné and guilloche, high quality silver objects, in class with court suppliers’ work. Fabergés’s supplier.

Traditional style, complete enamel covering, art nouveau influence with triangular and rectangular enamel cells, volutes.
Spirals, silver beads, green ochre, violet- and-cream tints in a hazy “water-colour” style

The marks, enamelcolours and quality are wrong. This are no twisted wires, soldered to the bowl and enamelled later; this are galvano - plastic made spoon forms, later filled with enamel!
Fake...

Regards
Postnikov

Please reread the text - nothing about "boxes"!

Regards
Postnikov, the guy with endless patience!

[piette]

Good evening Postnikov,
Thank you for such a fast response.
Here are pictures of the box in question.

(admin edit - Images removed)

This is the description that was provided:
"A Silver-Gilt and Cloisonné Enamel Pill Box
Mark of the 11th Artel, Moscow, 1908-1917
Oval, enamelled overall with stylised flowers and foliage in shades of green, olive, purple and blue, on a gilt-stippled ground, the hinged cover with simulated cabochon amethyst thumb-piece, marked under base and in cover field
2½ in. (6.4 cm.) long"

(admin edit - see Posting Requirements )

Regards,
Piette


P.S. (I have just seen that you have reposted whilst I was writing this post. Thank you for pointing out that the 11th Artel are not known to have made boxes. Sorry to have kept bothering you with my questions - I am just keen to learn. I will post the pictures above anyway.)

[Postnikov]

Hi -
as a future professional :

1) you know that the 11th Artel was not famous for pill (?) boxes and made only enamel covered objects like: (see above..)
2) you know from experience (handling many objects personally) and know/understand the technique of authentic enamel clausonné (how it is made and where to look)
3) you know your marks (no marks shown - only mentioned - why??)
4) you recognise the over all optic, quality and workmanship
5) you never trust a description - you only believe what you see
6) you know for sure: this is not only 100% fake - if it were possible - it would be 300% fake!
7) you turn back to your small but authentic collection and smile knowingly!

Regards
Postnikov

[Postnikov]

Hi -

Please read again and again until you understand what is wwritten:

Traditional style, complete enamel covering, art nouveau influence with triangular and rectangular enamel cells, volutes.
Spirals, silver beads, green ochre, violet- and-cream tints in a hazy “water-colour” style

Do you see art nouveau influence (what is that?)
Do you see triangular and rectangular enamel cells?
Volutes? (what is that?)
Spirals?
Silver beads?

Regards
Postnikov the masochistic teacher

[piette]

Hi -

Please read again and again until you understand what is wwritten:

Traditional style, complete enamel covering, art nouveau influence with triangular and rectangular enamel cells, volutes.
Spirals, silver beads, green ochre, violet- and-cream tints in a hazy “water-colour” style

Do you see art nouveau influence (what is that?)
Do you see triangular and rectangular enamel cells?
Volutes? (what is that?)
Spirals?
Silver beads?

Regards
Postnikov the masochistic teacher

Thank you for this information Postnikov. It is very interesting and I will keep it stored securely in my mind!
It is correct to say that I do not see any art nouveau style in this piece, or any triangular or rectangular cells.
I do see volutes and spirals, but no silver beads.

It is very interesting to learn how such small things as these can make the difference between a genuine and a fake item.

I suppose it can also be said that any '6th artel' items that are not spoons would also be fake? And that '6th Artel' items which do not have a complete enamel covering will also be fake?

I really appreciate all of this information from you Postnikov - it is excellent to be able to learn... and your comment about in future being able to look knowingly at my own small genuine collection really cheered me up and made me smile! Thank you :-)

Regards,
Piette

[dognose]

Hi Piette,

Am I correct in assuming you did get permission from the copyright holder to reproduce these images?

Trev.

[piette]

Hi Piette,

Am I correct in assuming you did get permission from the copyright holder to reproduce these images?

Trev.

Hi Trev,
Afraid I didn't - It didn't even occur to me!
I have removed the images though, so no problems should arise :)
I will avoid doing this again in future (and also avoid mentioning prices!)

Regards,
Piette

[Postnikov]

Hi -

6th Artel 6MA, 6A 1915 Working mostly with enamel cloisonné but also in plique-a-jour and guilloché techniques.Tea spoons One of the most famous in Russia, court supplier of high quality (enameled) silver.Traditional style, complete enamel covering, olive-green, blue, cream

Just read, don´t ask!
Please do not use me as interpretor - there is all written.

Regards
Postnikov