Vodka cup - Riga

PHOTOS REQUIRED - marks + item
dolpheus
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Vodka cup - Riga

Postby dolpheus » Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:55 pm

Dear friends,
can somebody identify factory mark (TJ7) on this russian vodka cup? I thing, 7 is for year 1967, but nothing more. Possibly, this cup come to Czechoslovakia during Soviet occupation(1968)??
Interesting is, this cup with Rigas (Litva) coat of arms was marked in Tallinn (Estonia)- Symbol Э is
Таллинская инспекция пробирного надзора, i.e. Estonia, its true?
Thank you very much
M.
Image

Dad
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Re: Vodka cup - Riga

Postby Dad » Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:08 pm

Yes, its true.

TJ - "Tallinna Juveelitehas". 1967.

dolpheus
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Re: Vodka cup - Riga

Postby dolpheus » Fri Nov 26, 2010 4:26 pm

Many thanks, Dad.

Qrt.S
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Re: Vodka cup - Riga

Postby Qrt.S » Sat Nov 27, 2010 2:48 pm

Question to Dad,

Mind my asking Dad, but on what do you base your statement of this TJ7 being Таллинский Ювелирный Забод 1967? To my understanding this factory was founded in 1971 and punched 1TJ-6TJ between 1971-1976. I probably miss something here but what? I would appreciate Postinkova or Troepolskaja index numbers or ...if you don't mind, thank you in advance.

Have a nice evening

Dad
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Re: Vodka cup - Riga

Postby Dad » Sat Nov 27, 2010 5:01 pm

Hi, Qrt.S

A little lot of history:

In 1923 the jeweler and artist Roman Tavast (1895-1942) has based enterprise VMT ROMAN TAVAST for manufacture of badges, medals and наградных signs. Business developed so successfully that in pre-war Estonia enterprise Tavasta occupied one of the most dear places in this sphere of business. At this factory the majority of distinctions for armed forces, polices, firemen, by Kajtselijta, schools, the other organizations has been made, special state orders were carried out.

In 1940 owner Roman Tavast has been arrested, and its factory has continued existence under name METALLMÄRK. On its base the Tallinn jeweler factory (Таллиннский ювелирный завод) subsequently has been created. Now the son of the Roman Tavast Raul-Roman Tavast is one of owners OU Juveel (the Tallinn jeweler factory) who is the unique manufacturer of table silver in the Baltic countries and the largest manufacturer of gold and silver ornaments in Estonia.

Also you know that:
Since 1953 to factory's mark began to add last figure of year. Since 1969 last figure of current year is put not in the end, but in the beginning of mark of factory.

For example:

Image

Best Reg..

Postnikov
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Re: Vodka cup - Riga

Postby Postnikov » Sat Nov 27, 2010 8:30 pm

Hi -
here the backside of an Estonian badge, made by Roman Tavast

Image

Regards
Postnikov

Qrt.S
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Re: Vodka cup - Riga

Postby Qrt.S » Sun Nov 28, 2010 4:14 am

Hello again,

Thank you for telling the historical background, it is always good to know it. Unfortunately it does not answer my question of the origin of these TJ-figure starting marks. Moreover, there is not a single word or anything stated regarding the questioned marks not in Postnikova, not in Troepolskaja or in no other source in my possession.

I'm aware of Roman Tawast and his mark during Estonia's first independence 1920-1940 but the "strange" marks are from the Soviet period as you very well know. The origin of the figure starting 0-6TJ marks is also clear, but the other mark's not? I would appreciate if you informed the source of information as well as where from you have got the marks on the picture you show or are they from objects in your possession?
There must be an acceptable explanation for these marks missing from both Postnikova as well as Troepolskaja and in general... If not, I'm starting to have some doubts...

Have a nice Sunday, here it is cold -14C degrees and 15 cm of snow.

Qrt.S

Dad
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Re: Vodka cup - Riga

Postby Dad » Mon Nov 29, 2010 6:11 pm

Hi, Qrt.S

Sorry for the long answer. A lot of time occupies a writing of messages.

About the "Tallinn jeweler plant":

After WWII on the basis of the old factory of Roman Tavast the "Tallinn jeweler factory" has been created. (Таллиннская Ювелирная Фабрика) Mark - «ЮТФ» (pic.)
Since 1953 in Soviet Union to mark of the manufacturer began to add in the end of mark last figure of current year. Mark of the Tallinn jeweler factory was reduced to «ТФ (*)» (pic.)
(The P. - L. writes about the period 1953-1958)
About 1960 on the basis of the Tallinn jeweler factory the "Tallinn jeweler plant" has been created.(Таллиннский Ювелирный Завод) Mark has changed: «ТЗ (*)» (pic.)
(The P. - L. writes about the period 1960-1963)
About 1964 Tallinn jeweler plant began to be called
"Tallinna Juveelitehas". I think, it was the political step (course).
Mark has changed: «TJ (*)». I already showed examples of marks.
Since 1969 in Soviet Union the order of drawing up of marks of manufacturers of silver subjects has changed. Last figure of current year began to put before mark of the manufacturer. Mark became «(*) TJ». I already showed examples.
For example : Image

Examples of marks are taken from my subjects and from my database.

I hope, I have helped ?
Best Reg..

Qrt.S
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Re: Vodka cup - Riga

Postby Qrt.S » Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:04 am

No, I'm sorry but you have not helped me.

I'm afraid I'm still out like the mailbox and even more confused. I can find and identify all marks you have shown except for these: TJ6, TJ7 and ЮТФ. They should be on pages 639 and/or 647 in Troepolskaja but they aren't??? Why? Troepolskaja is supposed to cover the years 1918-2000.

They are also missing from Postnikova. This book covers the years 1953-1977. As you say ТФ3, 8 and 7 are number 4598, 4599, 4500 i.e. Tallinskaja Juvelirnaja Fabrika. Also correct T30-T33 Tallinskij Juvelirnij Zavod 4586, 7, 8 and 9, correct but the other marks?

I know perfectly well how the years are marked, that is not the point here which is: Where can I have it verified what TJ6, TJ7 and ЮТФ are what you say they are? They cannot be found in any of my sources. Kindly inform me your source. I'm sorry but them being in your database is not good enough for me.

Regards

Qrt.S


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