The unknown mark of silversmith

[Dad]

Hi all.

Please, tell me about the silversmith. Who is he?



Best reg.

[Postnikov]

Hi Dad -
as you might know, a combination of Latin and Cyrillic letters has never be seen on real Russian silver. Next, the fact that all the different parts (handles, spout) are not marked, is very uncommon. The stamps are not the best (2 different assay master stamps !) and the quality/style of the object is not very good - more phantasy. The stand on both pieces is the same size (on the photos it looks like that - one has to see it in original).
I think it is some average silver, later "russificated", after erasing the old marks. Often and often seen.

Regards
Postnikov

[Dad]

Hi all.

Postnikov, Don't take offense, please, but you are maniac :0))))))))
These subjects are original Russian silver.
1. І, Ñ– – the letter of Cyrillics, this letter was excluded from the Russian alphabet by reform of 1918 ( the letter was number 10 before reform ), but remained in the Belarus alphabet and Ukrainian alphabet. (For example : «Iоанн (Иван)»)
2. You correctly think, on each detail there is a mark 84. But on a cover of coffee pot there is a townmark and mark of the master. All rules of marks are observed



In set of 5 subjects.



I searched this mark in Ivanov's book, but he doesn't distinguish a letter "И" and "I". Postnikova's book writes in additions: master Ivan Grechushnikov. But it is not assured. I thought somebody knows.

Anyway thanks.
Best reg.

[Qrt.S]

Just a short remark. The Latin letter I (Cyrillic И ) exists also in the older Cyrillic alphabet as I. The combination of I Г is therefore not impossible but rare. It exists in some maker's marks around the turn of the century 1799-1800. However, that is not the point here. It is as Postnikov already stated that every detachable part must carry a mark on Russian silver, on the spout, on the bottom plate/foot, on the the lid etc. This fact has been stated here over and over again. Another matter is that very often you see this AK assayer mark on objects with spurious marks...as we do also here. It is supposed to be Andrei Kovalskij, or?

Now the question remains to Dad; do you find any other marks on the mentioned parts, or? If not, both objects are dubious indeed. If you find marks, what marks and would you show them please.

I also have another request. Dubious objects or not but please polish them!

Have a nice afternoon

Qrt.S

[Postnikov]

Hi Dad -

When you call me maniac (if it concers Russian silver) - than you are absolute right and I feel honoured! :-)
Now let´s have a closer look at your "Russian silver":
The townmark is a lookalike of Moscow - Belarus or Ukrainian silver was generally assayed in Moscow - yes or no?
The fastening of the handle: see the file traces? See the sensless small round punch without mark? Here is your photo:



To show you how the Russian silver was correctly marked I enclose some photos of a cake platter from 15A. Every part is marked with silvercontent, assay mark and maker´s mark. There was no exeption! Just a flimsy 84 is not enough! Please note that the little round mark (assayer/proof) is only 1,5 mm but clear and crisp. This is too much for the fakers - so they always use an empty punch - like the one on your objekt. And because most of the buyers are ignorants or speculants - they have easy play!











This pics need no further explanation!

Regards
Postnicov the maniac

[Dad]

Hi, Postnikov.

It's not punch. It's hole of fastening of handle (elephant bone). These holes are on all handles. Look it on the first pic..

Best reg.

[Juke]

Hi!

Well I have to agree and disagree on some points and this is my experience, not going too much in details. I am not here going evaluate the authenticity as you already gave your views but there are some points I agree and some that I see another way. Just one small example the round 'mark' in the handle is not a mark but how the handle has been fastend to the pot.

I am more going to write about the practice how the 'marks on all detachable parts' point was understood according to my experience. First of all it seems there are differences how the silversmiths undestood the point 'marks on all detachable parts' meaning how they interpreted it. Parts that are clearly detachables like lids, handles on baskets etc. are marked according to this principle by the silversmiths and the assayers. Then other parts which have been soldered to the frame are not always marked, possibly because the silversmith did solder them on the frame and thereby possibly they were not marked by the assayer. Sometimes the assayer marked even if the silversmith hadn't marked it but I am sure that the silversmith was not excluded the rights to work as a master if they hadn't marked every part. I also see a very important point that the silversmiths and the assayers did not want to destroy the esthetics of the item with the absolute interpretation of the markings of the detachable parts for instance if there were some engravings or the mark would be too visible in the final item. That is the reason that the 'main' marks were put under the lid and in the bottom or the rim. My experience is also that the closer to the end of 19th century and the 20th century came, the markings way were made even more to the soldered parts so they were considered as detachable parts and marked. It is easy to say in an instance that something is not autentic but I see also that it is important to make comparisions to other similar items and how the text from the regulations were interpreted during the different times. You can also say that the items that I have seen marked according to this principle would not be authentic but I strongly disagree on it as most of the russian silver items that I have seen in auctions etc. during the last ten years would then not be authentic.

Regards,
Juke

[Postnikov]

Hi all -

now we are at the same point like weeks ago: it is completely useless to discuss fakes on a forum. All the details I mention will not be compared with the dubious piece. Dad and Juke tells me that the punch on the handle is for fixing the ivory (?) or bone grip. We all know that! I was looking for the little assay punch, which is missing. If there is a 84 punch - than there must be an assayer punch too. What is with the townmark Moscow? Belarus and Ukrainian silversmiths travelled to Moscow for assaying? No answers.

Believe what you want and be happy with your precious find!Until you want to sell it....

Juke - from studying auction catalogues you can learn nothing. If you have a real object - you can. Where ever is a stamp, if according or "not so according" - it must be correct, in size, legible and most of all: authentic!
Each collector knows that there is always an exeption from the rule - but the exeption must make sense and must fit in the overall picture.
And yes, most (not many - but most) of the Russian silver in the auction houses (big names or not) are fakes. Believe it or not.

For my part I will keep my distance from this timewasters in the future - there are enough people on this site who collect fakes - and love them!
I do not want them to be unhappy any more...

Regards
Postnikov

[Juke]

Hi!

Some how I guessed the reaction, as I wrote I was refering in general how in practice the marking system progressed not to a particular case.

Yes I have been to the auctions during a long period, had the items in my hand, photographed and learned little by little how in general the items are marked. In addition of course having the litterature to study.

I understand your approach and I believe it works well for you especially as you don't live in an area which has not been part or where most of the items where distributed after the revolution. I myself are more lucky as many items came to Finland, Sweden etc so we don't have the same problem with fakes as in the big countries/markets/monyes like US, Germany etc. Where do you think all the authentic russian silver items are then, vanished from the earth or locked in some collectors collection? No for instance there are people who have inherited them and want to sell via the auctions. There were made maybe hundred thousands items and quite big part are still around and a large quantity of those here in Finland.

I agree that the discussion don't progress so we don't get anyway and it is not even fruitful. I also say that you have been right in many fake cases here on this forum but I also see that your suspicious has progressed quite far most likely seeing and being involved with many fakes in Germany.

Regards,
Juke

[Postnikov]

Hi Juke -
you are absolute correct concerning Finish and Sedish "family"- Russian silver. Some 80 years ago there were no fakes and the owners knew exactly where it came from. The problem is not authentic silver (though there are some problems with unknown masters and assayers working in 3 towns at the same time) - this make this silver not to fakes - it highten the interest, the lust to investigate and the wish to solve the questionmarks. The problem are the fakes. The worlmarket is flooded with them, some collections are full of them, many archives register the fake marks as authentic and nearly all autors embed the photos of fake marks in their books (Troepolskaja, Ivanov etc.).
12 years ago I bought a lot of fine Russian silver in Helsinki - I did not see one faked piece! Would you say this is still possible today? Swedish auction houses - years ago - only authentic objects for very little money. And today? If you visited all this houses regularly and evaluated what you saw - were there no differences to the last years? I stopped visiting those auctions in Sweden!
Either you try to protect the unknowing with your growing experience over x years together with the growing experience of other seasoned collectors. Or you sit in front of your computer, stick your head in the sand and lough dirty whenever you see someone being cheated and ripped off by the fakers. In my opinion one has to make a clear decision.

Personally I want to give back, what once, blueeyed as I was in the years 1980-2002 in Russia, I got from others who knew what they were doing!Большое спасибо други!

Amen
Postnikov