Is this real silver?

PHOTOS REQUIRED - marks + item
Qrt.S
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Re: Is this real silver?

Postby Qrt.S » Fri Nov 05, 2010 8:48 am

Gentlemen, it is absolutely unnecessary to argue whether it transliterated this way or that way. Haven't you noticed that every country have their own way of doing it. From my point of view I find it strange indeed to see the Cyrillic letter Я transliterated on these sites as Ya. In my language it is simply Ja. However, we are talking/writing in English. Therefore please use the English transliterations here, which is Ya=Я. Thank you! If you cannot do it for reasons unknown just write it in Cyrillic letters and there is no problem anymore!"


Here is the mentioned assayer's name is Алексадръ Ильичъ Яашинковъ or Яашиновъ Which one is correct is not known with certainty. You can transliterate it as you like. Case transliteration closed!

About Carl/Karl Christian Fischer 1808-1842. There is very little know about him. He was a master of the foreign guild and marked C.F or C·F. The latter punch was a bit bigger than the first one. He did not make spoons only. In the National Museum of Finland in Helsinki there is a bread basket made by him.

About the town mark of St Petersburg. It was round or almost round between 1800-1825 with one exception in 1801 when there are two town marks used, one round and the other is a cut "oval". As from 1826 to 1860 there are two main shapes, one with round corners and one rectangular with cut corners like this mark shown above. As from 1860 to 1875 the purity is included in the mark and it has several shapes and it is a separate mark. As from 1875 to 1890 the assayer's initials and the year mark are included in the town mark. Then you have the dvoinik and troinik The next mark is the left kokoshnik 1898 and as from 1908 to 1927 the right kokoshnik.

However there is one very very rare mark used between about 1826 and 1876. It is: С.П:БУРГЪ. After 1908 another mark drops in С.П.БУРГЪ. Please note the change. The colon is changed into a dot (.).

Anyway, I also find the purity mark (84) on spoon number 1 a bit odd, it is rather big.... However, at that time the rules from 3.10.1797 was observer and minor variations are possible even if the marks were made in St Petersburg Mint Office.

finnclouds
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Re: Is this real silver?

Postby finnclouds » Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:34 am

Morning, Postnikov--

I mean no disrespect but as a perfectionist student, I have to point out that you originally transliterated the Я into Ju-- Jutschinov (Jutschinikov, Jutschenkov) -- not Ja (Jahr) as in your table.

I admire your knowledge of Russian silver and greatly value your contributions here. I will continue to read your insightful comments even if you transliterate into Klingon. :-P

(Backs away slowly... )

Morning Qrt --
ladies and gentlemen if you will!

No better way to start a day than a nice little spat about transliteration between native speakers of German and Finnish, arguing in English. :-) I direct you to the several occasions above where I pointed out transliteration depends on language.

Thanks for the comments re the St. Petersburg marks. You and Postnikov are both great assets to this board-- keep up the good work!

I didn't realize Kansallismuseo had Russian silver -- will check it out next time in Helsinki.

Qrt.S
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Re: Is this real silver?

Postby Qrt.S » Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:54 am

Afternoon dear finncloud,

My lady, I am terribly sorry, I duly regret this unfortunate incident, It shall not happen again. Yes finnclouds you have made your point clear but somehow it remained in the shadow of darkness. Therefore I brought it up in daylight. To argue about transliteration is only a complete waste of energy and leads to no result whatsoever.

Anyway, about the piece in the National Museum. In the respective museum there is a place called the "silver chamber". I have been there but I cannot recall seeing i this item. Well I haven't actually looked for it either, so...? Kindly keep in mind that only a few per cent of all the items in the museums possession are exhibited to the visitors.

Maybe you have been abroad for so long that you have forgotten that Finland once was a part of the Russian Empire, The grand Duchy of Finland, you know :-)))))))))))))))))

finnclouds
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Re: Is this real silver?

Postby finnclouds » Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:21 am

Maybe you have been abroad for so long that you have forgotten that Finland once was a part of the Russian Empire, The grand Duchy of Finland, you know :-)))))))))))))))))

Hmmm -- must have happened after I left..... :-P

Postnikov
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Re: Is this real silver?

Postby Postnikov » Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:58 am

Hi finnclouds -( a transliteration of your real name into Navajo - I´m sure !)

You are absolute right - I wrote Ju instead Ja. Sorry for that - it looks like my nurse forgot to counter check my outgoing email...
I promise it will never happen again.

Regards
Postnikov

Postnikov
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Re: Is this real silver?

Postby Postnikov » Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:12 am

Hi Qrt.s -

I am a little confused. You have seen a bread basked made by the spoonmaker Carl Christian Fischer in NM in Helsinki but you can not recall seeing this item. You even haven´t actually looked for it.
For heavens sake, what have you seen????? I am in deep concerns!

Regards and visions
Postnikov

Qrt.S
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Re: Is this real silver?

Postby Qrt.S » Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:46 am

Correct Postnikov, good reason to be confused. I made an unclear statement. I apologize for that. (lots of apologizes today I'm afraid :-))))))

Actually I haven't seen anything but I read in a book that a bread basket made by Karl Fischer is in the possession of the National Museum of Finland. As I said earlier I have been in the silver chamber but I have not seen the basket there. Maybe because I didn't really look for it. Probably it is stored somewhere else. As you know the museum's collections are enormous and everything is not in the exhibition rooms.

Next time i go there, I shall ask for it and if I know something new, I'll tell you. It might take a while....

You see, I saw it in the book but you see, I haven't seen it in the museum. I hope you see what I mean...;-)

Dad
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Re: Is this real silver?

Postby Dad » Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:35 pm

Qrt.S wrote:About the town mark of St Petersburg.
However there is one very very rare mark used between about 1826 and 1876. It is: С.П:БУРГЪ. After 1908 another mark drops in С.П.БУРГЪ. Please note the change. The colon is changed into a dot (.).


Hi.

Thanks Qrt.S. You have correctly understood my doubts.
Can you show mark "С.П:Бург" from 1826-1876?
I believe "S.P.Burg" from 1908 it is mark of the manufacturer. In a Troynik mark from 1908 already there is a town mark - "a". Image

Best reg.

Qrt.S
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Re: Is this real silver?

Postby Qrt.S » Fri Nov 05, 2010 3:23 pm

Evening,

Unfortunately I don't have an original mark as you request Dad, only a soot mark. That mark is in a book and I might violate the copyright rules if i show it here. I really don't know is it allowed to show here marks, pictures, text whatever copied from books. Does anyone, please tell me. Thank you.

Anyway, the soot mark looks exactly the same as Postnikova #1154 except for the second dot mark which is superseded with a colon. In other words the mark you show Dad but with a colon. However, I would be interested in knowing what makes you think it is a trade mark/manufacturer's mark. If it would be that, why is not the manufacturer mentioned but the town only? As I mentioned it is a very rare mark indeed and it was used as from 1826 to 1860 not to 1876 as I stated earlier, sorry.

Dad! Kindly do not call the mark you show for a troiniki /triple ! It is not a troiniki. A troiniki is totally different mark used in late 1800. It is a poincon i.e. a punch put together of three marks, the assayer, the purity and the town mark to one punch, a poincon.

Have a nice evening

Qrt.S

Dad
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Re: Is this real silver?

Postby Dad » Fri Nov 05, 2010 4:42 pm

Qrt.S wrote:Evening,
Anyway, the soot mark looks exactly the same as Postnikova #1154 except for the second dot mark which is superseded with a colon. In other words the mark you show Dad but with a colon. However, I would be interested in knowing what makes you think it is a trade mark/manufacturer's mark. If it would be that, why is not the manufacturer mentioned but the town only? As I mentioned it is a very rare mark indeed and it was used as from 1826 to 1860 not to 1876 as I stated earlier, sorry.

Dad! Kindly do not call the mark you show for a troiniki /triple ! It is not a troiniki. A troiniki is totally different mark used in late 1800. It is a poincon i.e. a punch put together of three marks, the assayer, the purity and the town mark to one punch, a poincon.

Qrt.S




Hi, Qrt.S.

1. You write: «If it would be that, why is not the manufacturer mentioned but the town only?»
I explain, С. and П. — the initials, Burg — a surname. It not reduction of the name of a city, but a name of the person.
This data from A.N.Ivanov.
2. The word "Тройник"(troynik) designates the three-value punch-poincon (трехзначное клеймо) containing silver fineness, the state mark and a town letter. So it is told in « Правила клейменiя золотыхъ и сребряныхъ изделiй» ( " «Rules of a marking of gold and silver products») from 1908. These «Rules …» the law.

Reg.

Qrt.S
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Re: Is this real silver?

Postby Qrt.S » Sat Nov 06, 2010 3:30 am

Excellent Dad, thank you. It has never caught my mind that it wold be a manufacturer's name. I, as many others too, have understood it as an abbreviation for St Petersburg like StP. Now I know better.

But about the poincon punch. Yes, I share your opinion regarding the definition of a poincon. The point is not that but what you show 5.11. at 8.35. "S.P.BURG" etc. That photo does not show a troiniki as well as not a poincon. This is a troiniki/poincon:
Image

Rgds Qrt.S

Postnikov
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Re: Is this real silver?

Postby Postnikov » Sat Nov 06, 2010 11:58 am

Hi dad -
Hi Qrt.S -

I have some serious doubts when I see this mark:

Image

St. Petersburg is written Петербург without ь at the end. С. П. Бургь is written with ь at the end. So it could/must (?) be a name - but why nobody (sources) knows Burg or his initials? How could a manufacturer from St.Petersburg buy from supplierЕП (Pankratev ) if he had not a certain sice? Pankratev is well kown - Burg is a nobody and is neither not listed under smiths or manufacturers nor factories or firms dealing with silver. On the other side is a mark ПЕТРОГРАДЬ with ь known, ЛЕНИНГРАД without ь! What is correct and what not? What is the purpose of marking an silver object with the Kokoshnik mark/Alpha plus the mark Petrograd, Leningrad or S.P.BURG. Was it the pre Revolution years and/or the circumstances? WW I ?
By the way - the above marks are very dubious: the Kokoshnik is OK but the rest is poor. From whatever book it was copied - it is copied and copied and copied - and than it is suddenly authentic!

Regards
Postnikov

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Re: Is this real silver?

Postby agphile » Sat Nov 06, 2010 2:32 pm

Postnikov

The Russian alphabet was reformed in 1918 when the hard sign as at the end of Petrograd above disappeared. I am not sure how long it took for the reform to affect spelling in practice but Leningrad will never have been written with a hard sign. I am not even certain what the old practice was in respect of when to use the hard sign but the point seems relevant when it comes to dating marks or to wondering about variations.

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Re: Is this real silver?

Postby agphile » Sat Nov 06, 2010 2:39 pm

Sorry. I should have said the hard sign at the end of "Burg" above. In you post you have put a soft sign at the end of Petrograd. The soft sign remains in use but not at the end of "grad" or "gorod".

Qrt.S
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Re: Is this real silver?

Postby Qrt.S » Sat Nov 06, 2010 5:07 pm

Ayayaya, what are you talking about? Let's not mix the letters. back to basics, Agphile is absolutely right in what he is saying.

1) Б this is Latin B as beta
2) Ь this is the soft mark, no sound
3) Ъ this is the hard mark, no sound

Now Petrograd was written in Cyrillics ПЕТРОГРАДЪ but after 1918 ПЕТРОГРАД, Leningrad is always written Ленинград and St Petersburg Санкт-Петербургъ but after 1918 Санкт-Петербург. Do not mix letters and sound marks.

About the mark С.П.БУРГЪ. It was a company in St Petersburg 1908-1917, There is no doubts about that anymore. I verify Dad's insert.

Postnikov
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Re: Is this real silver?

Postby Postnikov » Sat Nov 06, 2010 7:50 pm

Hi -
Aha ....than this marks are from the same Mr.Burg!

Image

Please can someone show me a real object (s) from this mysterious enterprise? Please no copyright blabla , fakes or photos from books - only originals!!
Once I had 5 tea spoons with this mark - but I sold them (very bad quality, not 100% sure if authentic)...

Regards
Postnikov

Postnikov
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Re: Is this real silver?

Postby Postnikov » Sat Nov 06, 2010 8:28 pm

Hi -
thank you for the useless language lesson. All this things are known. Maybe you did not understand what I wanted to show - С. П. БУРГъ can not be a firm! It is quite frustrating to debate with bookworms!
Just to say: "I verify Dad´s insert" is not good enough for me. I need some proofs.
Here is a spoon , please note the marks:

Image

ЕП, different cartouche, Kokoshnik St. Petersburg 1899-1908, the same different looking С. П. БУРГЪ.
This spoons were fakes! Maybe you know the right place for the marking of teaspoons? The marks dad showed were what S.P. BURG concerns, fakes too.
By the way: this Burg mark I have only seen on fakes.
Now I expect some serious answers, photos tc.

Regards
Postnikov

oel
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Re: Is this real silver?

Postby oel » Sun Nov 07, 2010 4:30 am

Morning Postnikov,

It will perhaps annoy you but please may I ask who started the language lessons? I love it when emotions kick in. Back to the spoon and the S.P Burg mark: what confuses me is the kokoshnik. You yourself wrote the koshnik looks authentic! If the koshnik is authentic have the fakers altered/ added a different maker's mark and retailer's mark? The page 'Dad' showed us claiming: S.P Burg to be owner of a silverwork establishment, mentioned in 1908-1917. Monogram-maker EП worked for him. St.Petersburg, you consider this of nil and no value? You ask for hard prove and serious answers about this S.P Burg. May I turn around the question and ask you to come with hard prove the S.P. Burg, shown by 'Dad' is a fake retailer's mark. Yes, I can see the differences with the spoon you have shown us, you yourself called your spoon a fake but this does not prove the spoon shown by 'Dad' is a fake. Perhaps you will say, we do not discuss fakes on this forum? But you called it a fake so please prove your point.
Some of us also wonder is there any extra profit in making a silver spoon with fake Russian hallmarks?

Regards Oel

Postnikov
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Re: Is this real silver?

Postby Postnikov » Sun Nov 07, 2010 12:39 pm

Hi Oel -
I started no language lesson, I only wanted to show that Petersburg etc. was at some times written with a ъ at the end and sometimes not. Because this mystery firm (?) is written with a Ъ. What I really wanted to express is, that it could be an abbreviation of St. Petersburg too - as already done in 1730-1737.
What I do not understand is: ЕП was a well known spoon and fork maker - all the spoons from him I have seen or owned were "only" marked with his name and the kokoshnik of the time. Suddenly spoons (and only spoons - no forks he made also) appeared on the market in larger quantyties - all with crude С. П. БУРГъ marks in different shapes. This mark is known but not as a mark of a certain firm (in my sources). Why marking an object, that is already identyfied through the kokoshnik´s town letter or assayer´s letters as from St. Petersburg, again with the abbrevation of St. Petersburg? Is there a reason for it? Which?

If this is really the mark of a firm (than would be the next conclusion - a vendor), than it is a joke of the century that a Russian vendor in St. Petersburg has the non- Russian name S.P.BURG, the abbreviation of St. Petersburg! And to make the joke complete: he appeared and disappeared without traces in the archives etc.

Postnikova and Ivanov are full of mistakes - some are known, some not. Future will bring up unknown details and changes. But accepting all what is written without watching the reality and using common sense....

Maybe some people think I have a persecution mania about fakes - they do not know what is going on. The stereotyp question: how can you make profit out of some falsifyed spoons for 20$ is best answered in some customs office - where they destroy faked goods for millions of $$ every half year. Or you read this forum´s sad storys every week. Motto: crap for much money.

I want to know the truth to scale down my own mistakes!

Regards
Postnikov

Dad
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Re: Is this real silver?

Postby Dad » Sun Nov 07, 2010 4:59 pm

Hi all.
The citation presented by me from A.N.Ivanov's book (“Gold and silversmiths in Russia (1600 — 1926)”). The book is written by the expert for experts. For the statement there were probably facts. A mark's photo not from the book.
"С.П.Бург" brand as we see, meets only together with «ЕП», other variants I didn't see. It isn't characteristic for a city brand.
Reduction of the name St.-Petersburg usually "С.-Петербург", «С.П.Б.», «С.П.б.»
In a surname of "Бург" there is nothing unusual, there are surnames even more unusual. Russian writer A.P.Chehov has told: «There is no such subject which couldn't become the Jewish surname». ;0)))
But this my opinion. Your right not to trust.
In an arrangement of marks on a spoon there is nothing unusual.

Here still examples of marks of spoons Image

Best reg.


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