Is this real silver?

PHOTOS REQUIRED - marks + item
KathyJB
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Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2010 3:41 pm

Is this real silver?

Postby KathyJB » Sun Oct 31, 2010 8:31 pm

I found 3 spoons in a box of flatware I got at a garage sale. They cleaned up like silver, but I am no expert. I would appreciate some help because I didn't find anything on the silver marks website.

http://s42.photobucket.com/albums/e330/Kbotard/Silver/

Image

KathyJB
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Re: Is this real silver?

Postby KathyJB » Sun Oct 31, 2010 10:35 pm

What I've found out is that Karl Fischer is the maker, Mikail Mikhaìlovich Karpinskiì is the assayer. I need to figure out what the 84 is.

Can anyone tell me about Karl Fischer? I know he is the silversmith that made my spoons, but I can't find a thing about him nor do I see any silverware made by him other than what I found. I don't have any jewelers near where I live that I know of who can help me. There are also no antique stores around to help so I am really hoping someone can help me. I also do not have any books of reference. All I have is you and the internet.
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user701
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Re: Is this real silver?

Postby user701 » Mon Nov 01, 2010 2:19 am

http://www.925-1000.com/Frussia.html

84 zolotniki = 84/96 or 875/1000 parts pure silver or .875

Silver Standard Mark - two numerals in a rectangle indicating the zolotniki; 62, 72, 74, 76, 82, 84, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, and 94 have all been used at one time or another, only 84 and above from 1798.

finnclouds
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Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:17 pm

Re: Is this real silver?

Postby finnclouds » Mon Nov 01, 2010 8:47 am

Do all your spoons look the same in the back (at the business/bowl end) as the one with Karpinskiy 1830 assayer mark? How many have the assayer mark? (The photo on the board doesn't -- it would seem to have two sets of maker marks.)

You might want to post your photo number seven on the forum as well, in case the experts don't click on your photo and realize there are more. The marks on that spoon (in photo seven) would seem to indicate it was made by Carl Fischer and assayed by Karpinskiy in St. Petersburg in 1830. BUT please be patient and wait for the board Russian silver experts. I'm a little puzzled by the other spoon(s).

Postnikov
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Re: Is this real silver?

Postby Postnikov » Mon Nov 01, 2010 11:02 am

Hi -

spoon N° 1

Image

From left to right: C.F Fischer Carl Christian 1808-1842 = maker. MK Karpinskij Michail Michilowitsch = Assayer, on duty 1825-1838. 84 (Zolozniki) = silver content = 875/1000. Townmark of St. Petersburg

spoon N° 2

Image

From left to right: Townmark of St. Petersburg. Assayer АЯ = Jutschinov (Jutschinikov, Jutschenkov) Alexandr Ilitsch, on duty1795-1826. Silver content 84 Zolotniki, CF = maker

There are some discrepancies over the punch of CF - dot down or in the middle

Image

The spoons are originals. We do not discuss value on this site!

Regards
Postnikov

Postnikov
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Re: Is this real silver?

Postby Postnikov » Mon Nov 01, 2010 11:10 am

Hi -

forgot to mention that he , Carl Ch. Fischer was only known for making spoons. You will not find any other objects from him!

Regards
Postnikov

KathyJB
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Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2010 3:41 pm

Re: Is this real silver?

Postby KathyJB » Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:35 pm

Hi, sorry I haven't been back here. I found out that this site doesn't work with my Firefox so I tried Explorer.

Ok, I only have one spoon with the assayer mark by Karpinskij. The other two are assayer AH? AR?

From left to right: Townmark of St. Petersburg. Assayer АЯ = Jutschinov (Jutschinikov, Jutschenkov) Alexandr Ilitsch, on duty1795-1826. Silver content 84 Zolotniki, CF = maker

It's amazing that these 2 spoons are that old. Amazing and how did they make it to my little part of the world? I believe they are going to stay with me unless hard times hit again. The spoon I only have one of is more curved at the end of the handle than the other two.

I thank you very much for your knowledge.

KathyJB
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Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2010 3:41 pm

Re: Is this real silver?

Postby KathyJB » Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:43 pm

Here is a photo of all three spoons.

Image

Postnikov
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Re: Is this real silver?

Postby Postnikov » Tue Nov 02, 2010 5:57 pm

Hi-
Your photo of the 3 spoons show, that the first 2 spoons were heavily used - see the wear out bowl tips. The curved handles are a typical sign for Russian spoons.

Regards
Postnikov

KathyJB
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Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2010 3:41 pm

Re: Is this real silver?

Postby KathyJB » Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:20 pm

yes I saw that, but considering their age, I think they look pretty good. Is that from spooning things out of a bowl? They are both worn the same way. I wonder if they were ever used for a restaurant or catering, maybe a wedding planner used them?
Once again, many thanks for sharing your knowledge.

Postnikov
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Re: Is this real silver?

Postby Postnikov » Wed Nov 03, 2010 10:13 pm

Hi -
your spoons are 180 years old!!! At that time most people had tinplates - therefore the worn bowl. I believe that they changed the owner after 1917! Wedding planner, catering, restaurant???? Maybe you want to read a little about Russian and Soviet history - it is the colourful history of your spoons!

Regards
Postnikov

KathyJB
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Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2010 3:41 pm

Re: Is this real silver?

Postby KathyJB » Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:51 pm

I think maybe I should. Do you have a suggestion of what book to read? Silver spoons and tin plates, imagine that.

Postnikov
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Re: Is this real silver?

Postby Postnikov » Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:20 am

Hi -
In the place you live there is a library - the best place to ask. After you read some books about Imperial Russia (rich) and Soviet Union (poor) you will understand the history of your spoons better.
This spoons started as table silver in a well off family with porcellan dishes - then they were sold, traded, stolen, confiscated etc. in the year 1917 (Revolution), the era of tin or aluminium plates. This is just an assumption how it coul have been. Spoons which look like yours mostly had this past. Now start to read......

Regards
Postnikov

Dad
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Re: Is this real silver?

Postby Dad » Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:09 pm

Hi all.

Compare brands of this period. Before 1840 punch of St.-Petersburg in a circle. 84 in a rectangle. Next years - in an octagon. 84 has the strange form. How think? Itself I understand what to forge a spoon senselessly.

Image

Best Regards.

finnclouds
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Re: Is this real silver?

Postby finnclouds » Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:24 pm

I'm curious about the lack of a year in the earlier spoons, assayed by Yashinov ( I think the Russian Я transliterates into Ya in English instead of Ju). Was that common -- not having a year punch?

Apart from the Postnikova -Loseva, is there a book/place you experts here would recommend for learning about/checking assayer years and punch mark placement rules?

P.S. Thanks for the book recommendation in the other thread, Postnikov! It came last weekend and confirmed a couple of things I've been wondering about.

Postnikov
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Re: Is this real silver?

Postby Postnikov » Thu Nov 04, 2010 7:36 pm

Hi dad -
the round punch (townmark) of St. Petersburg was in use 1818-1864! If it is a fake?????????? No answer.

Hi finnclouds -
First: the cyrillic alphabet is transliterated like the German alphabet. I am German - I translate the letters correct. In other languages you have problems with letters like Ju, Tsch, TschT and so on and try to translate them phonetic! There is a big difference between JU and Ya!
There are many other books like Troepolskaja (Soviet Union (130 Euro) orIvanov (2 volumes) but they are expensive (500-700 Euros). You have to read all possible sources and pick up the different informations - and than you have to compare, is it possible or not. A good collection with real pieces will help - if you can hold it in your hand and if it is authentic, than you know that at least one piece had been made!
Just one book where you find all answers is not on the maket.
The round punch (townmark) of St. Petersburg was in use 1818-1864 . The assayer was on duty 1795-1826, the smith worked 1842.The "real" assaying started around 1820, but there where provisional solutions.
Now it is up to you if it is authentic or not.

Regards
Postnikov

finnclouds
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Re: Is this real silver?

Postby finnclouds » Thu Nov 04, 2010 8:34 pm

Hi,

Thanks for all the info!
Re AЯ-- I just wished to clarify the name as an English speaker would likely expect Ya, since Ju would be pronounced as in the word "jury." The assayer is listed as Yashinov in the Russian section of this site.

How to transliterate between languages is, of course, always a fun game: I have a friend in Helsinki, married to a Russian, who is found in the phone book seven pages earlier than her husband. She uses his family name transliterated into Finnish -- he uses the name as it once appeared on his Soviet passport, transliterated into French.

Postnikov
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Re: Is this real silver?

Postby Postnikov » Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:29 pm

Hi finnclouds -

please notice that we speak about Russian names and how they are translated. The Russian pronounciation of the letters is identic with the German pronounciation. So for me it is as close as possible transated to Latin letters. Russian names should stay Russian. If my name is Jürgen Müller I do not want to see it as Jurgen Muller. In a Russian forum we could write the names in cyrillic - but most of the readers just want to get quick and free answers, if possible in their home language, but do not want to learn the essentials - not my fault.

But I think most will understand what I write - I try to be very simple.

Regards
Postnikov

finnclouds
Posts: 31
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:17 pm

Re: Is this real silver?

Postby finnclouds » Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:15 am

Hi Postnikov -- you are up late!?

I do realize we are talking about Russian names. I'm a linguist of sorts (studied Russian and English) so please forgive a further attempt to clarify my point.

There are a number of common ways of transliterating Russian letters into Roman/Latin ones -- many are, of course, geared towards speakers of various languages. (See link to Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Russian.)

In all systems I was familiar with, Я becomes ya or ja, as ju and yu are needed for Ю.
The system in Germany is obviously different -- I just wasn't aware of it. Most people will obviously neither notice or care, like you said. I was simply trying to be a good student and paid attention to the tiniest detail as told. :-)

Postnikov
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Re: Is this real silver?

Postby Postnikov » Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:23 am

Hi finnclouds -

if you want to be a good student and pay attention to the tiniest detail as you was told several times: Why you do´nt do it Дурак? .-)
Here is the proof - I know you will only believe what you see or can touch.... :-)

Image

Regards
Postnikov


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