koch & bergfeld bremer lilie russian import spoon

[ktiggeloven]

I've recently acquired a spoon which poses some questions for me, so I hope anyone on the forum could help.
It's a silver jugendstil spoon with an oyster shaped bowl which is of the Bremer Lilie design by Hugo Leven for Koch & Bergfeld. However, I've not been able to find this type of particular spoon, so I wonder if anybody knows where it's for. It is also not marked with any Koch & bergfeld marks, just with a Russian import mark and a small mark of an animal. It is also marked with initials GA topped with a royal crown. Maybe it's a specially commisioned piece. If anybody knows who GA might be, that might help as well.
pictures are below.
thanks in advance, Kasper

[Qrt.S]

It is a sugar spoon earlier called sugar sifter. You see earlier before you could buy granulated sugar you had to made it yourself and the use a sugar sifter to spread the sugar through its holes and the big parts or grains remained in the sifter. But there were no big grains in commercially manufactured granulated sugar and therefore the holes became unnecessary. Your spoon belongs to a sugar basin.

There is, however, something else interesting with your spoon. It is imported to Russia between 1898-1908 probably via Riga the capital of Latvia. It is assayed by Kliment Zagajevskij (3).The interesting thing is that the engraving is in Latin script GA or AG and the crown has 5 sprongs (?). These facts carry my thoughts to the Grand Duchy of Finland and its lesser nobility around the turn of the century. Who this AG/GA is I have no idea but I will take a look and in case I find something I will inform you. But before that, do you you mean that you have bought it or have you got it from a family member with possibly roots/relations to Finland? Or could you tell me some more about the spoons provenience?

[Postnikov]

Hi -
As you stated this spoon (pattern Bremer Lilie) is from the German firm Koch & Bergfeld and was imported direct to the Baltic state Latvia (Riga) - at that time under Russian rule - therefore the Russian import mark. From Latvia it was imported to Rumania - therefore the Rumanian import mark (2 fishes and the Roman II - the Roman II stands for the silvercontent 800), in use since February 28th 1906.. In my collection is a similar spoon but in another pattern from Koch & Bergfeld, also imported first to Latvia (Riga) and later to Rumania. At that time Riga was a busy city and because of his high percentage of German and Jewish merchands strongly connected to Germany and his famous silver manufacturers. My opinion: Certain wares couldl only be imported via another country to Rumania. The crown belong to a baron = low nobility.
The spoon is official called: strawberry or blackberry spoon.
Here are some Photos:







and a coffee spoon in the same pattern



Regards
Postnikov

[silverport]

»Bremen Lily« Pattern 25600 of Koch & Bergfeld, 20 Sept. 1900 registered

Hello Kasper

The pattern number »25600«, later baptized »Bremer Lilie« (»Bremen Lily«) is registered on 20 September 1900 — that date is based on research, be done now some decennia ago.

Seven months later, on 18 April 1901 the same pattern, but with a flat backside, were registered too; that pattern number is »25900«. This kind of cutlery, with a flat backside, was mostly made as a “lighter” version (700 gram for twelve table spoon or forks) for markets with competitors. The “normal” version is 800 gram; more, e.g. 1,000 gram, were destined for the Russian market or for the Nobility.

Yours sugar spoon couldn’t be a cream spoon; for reason of his textured surface. The bowls of servers as sugar spoons, compote spoons, cream spoons and salad spoons and forks are often being gilded in and outside.

It seems that this »form« of sugar spoons bowl was made later? Because in an early (?) and nearly complete illustration on the pattern »25600« are shown only three variants:

Number 25600/1351 with a rhomboid like bowl (it seems to be decorative engraved only, but not pierced?).

Number 25600/1352 with a longitudinal oval shell bowl (pierced), with stylized little “wings” near the stem.

Number 25600/1353 like as gravy ladle; which bowls bottom is pierced with many four pointed stars.

It could be that this »form« of bowl was especially designed for the export to several foreign markets, e.g. like Belgium, France and some others.

As »QrtS« has already mentioned, sugar spoons were most often used with a similar stylized sugar bowl — but well also sale separate as additional present, or as part of complete cutlery sets.

The Monogram should be read as a ligature of »GA« - so »QrtS« assumption of a Baltic background seems to be of probability.

But if the Crown would match with the symbolic there, I don’t know.

Kind regards silverport

[Postnikov]

Hi silverport -
please google under strawberry or blackberry spoon - you will at once realise that it is no sugarspoon - who wants 500g sugar! I can send you the measures and the weight - the object is in my home and not in a book!

Here is a strawberry spoon and fork



Here one from Tiffany



Regards
Postnikov

[silverport]

Dimensions! Dimensions! Please add the dimensions to the questions; please.

Hello »Postnikov« et all

Yes of course I don’t want 500 gram sugar at once.

But in the original question wasn’t mentioned from Kaspar, well maybe an expert too (?), any dimension.

That isn’t only he, who forgets that we haven’t the item in our hands and could handle it e.g. under striking light, or feel the dimensions and weight, could observe with the magnifying lens …

So »QrtS« and I were not sufficient informed as you by coincidence - by having a similar bowl, on a spoon you own. Was that our fault?

I’ve got by time and while some knowledge — but I haven’t the psychic power of a clairvoyant.

Just some minutes ago I’ve got notice of a similar case: The item wasn’t sufficient described in the dimensions — and in the additional pictures the object looks like to be a wine cooler — now the Lady inform: » it only measures 2 1/4" tall «. What is that? Look: viewtopic.php?f=18&t=21917

Some like to get sounded answers on bad described objects, like as in 2005 when »925-1000« was fledged.

Some refuse to present clearer images …

»Gute Sitten verderben schlechte Gewohnheiten« - »Good behaviour spoil bad behaviours«

Let’s start — just now!

Kind regards silverport

[Qrt.S]

Yes like Silverport suggested, let's start from the beginning. First of all Internet is no bible whatsoever, do not believe everything what is written there ! If you do, that you could call stup....y!
The question is what do we have here? Obviously a spoon but no measures. Let's assume the spoon is about 18-20 cm long. In that case it is a undoubtedly a berry-spoon as Postnikov also stated or a casserole spoon. But it could also be only 10-12 cm and in that case it is a sugar spoon. Until we know its length it is useless to argue about what it is, basta!

This is a bit out of topic but I think that in this case it is acceptable. According to Postnikov his first picture at 3.32 am shows a strawberry spoon and fork??? What I see is an individual cake/dessert fork c 12 cm because it has a one thicker prong/tine to cut the cake with! Kindly look at the upper prong.The individual strawberry spoon c. 10 cm has unusually long and thin prongs/tines for the reason not to split the strawberry when you pick it. The spoon on the same picture is a dessert spoon. It doesn't necessary mean that a spoon is meant for strawberries only because it is decorated with such. Of course nobody prohibits you for eating strawberries with it.

I also would like to ask Silverport what tells you that it is GA and not AG? Kindly also note that Finland is not a Baltic country . But the spoon, however, could also be from this region. The thing is that the crown symbolizing lesser nobility looks very Finnish to me. I'm trying to find out who it might represent but but....

Have A nice morning all of you

Qrt.S

[Postnikov]

Hi -
now I have to do what kliggeloveen should have done......

The spoon we speak about has a length of 22 cm and a weight of 98 g. Spoons with that special form (seashell, clam) are internationally called : in D= Beerenlöffer (sometimes Erdbeeren -, Blaubeeren -, Himbeeren-etc Löffel)
in F: Cullière a fraise or pelle fraises, in USA and GB: berryspoon, strawberryspoon etc.
To distinguish it from other spoons some photos:

3 berryspoons (2 French, 1 German exported to Latvia and from there to Rumania), 1 Russian sugarspoon (there exist a shovel form too)

4 Russian sugarspoons/shovel form





4 Russian teasieves



What you do or eat with this spoons is up to you - manufacturers and collectors call them berryspoons.

Regards
Postnikov

[Qrt.S]

Do they? Very interesting indeed. Nevertheless, about the four spoons in the last photo.
The first to the left could be a pierced berry spoon but as well a sugar sifter. The second to the left is a sugar sifter and the two to the right are tea strainers. How do I know you may ask? Well, the piercing in a tea strainer is usually drilled and therefore the holes are of course round. There is no reason for making difficult irregular holes in a tea strainer. However, the piercing in a sugar strainer is usually made with a saw and therefore they are not round but irregular. But a berry spoon can also be pierced. Therefore the the first spoon to the left might be a berry spoon as well nearly because of its size compared to the other spoons. I guess it is about 20 cm or 8" maybe more. FYI, you don't eat with none of the spoons!

Have a nice evening
Qrt.S

[silverport]

Hello »QrtS«

I’m so sorry on my mistake. In my mind it wasn’t clear enough, that already you’ve really excluded other possibilities. First I was thinking to write »Baltic Sea area« - but then maybe could come a protest of other collectors, that the item isn’t a »Captains spoon«, and even so not prick engraved too. But how to describe correct the global area — so I made the mistake to write »Baltic«.

But now I like to explain my interpretation of the Monogram:

In my collection I’ve included also napkin rings and napkins, and table clothes too. Actually the biggest one from about begin to mid XIX century, is woven in one piece for a counts family = 2.6 m by 3.2 m, embroidered in red with a counts crown — the others a little bit smaller, but until 5 m long, also embroidered.

So it was necessary to could read also Monogram. Embroidered monogram are more difficult to “read” as the same in metal engraved version. There fore it’s necessary to look how and where is the single letter intertwined with the other or others?

I was teach by a book of monogram design, that the almost left one is in our culture the first one, and is the signification for the (main) Christian name, followed by the letter for fathers name.

But if they are equal in textures, as it is in this case, then it is a double Christian name. Otherwise the fathers name letter would have more textures, like e.g. hatchings.

So this example has to be “read” as »GA« - but there with you would come in a cul-de-sac; because family name indication letter is missing. And how is it with the entire Baroness’s too? Don’t forget international marriages.

I hope that the burden isn’t to long lasting — especially if you’ve to enlarge yours research to Dracula’s county too.

Kind regards silverport

[Postnikov]

Hi silverport -

some photos of crowns and monograms. BTW, in our culture (Europe) we do not know father´s names like the Russians. You can have several surnames but only the "Rufname" counts in a monogram. In several other countries (GB, USA etc) you write all your surnames. In old monograms the letter for the Christian name is plain, while the letter for the family name is always in some way decorated, hatched etc. So you can easy distingwish if the owner`s TH monogram read Toni Huber or Hubert Tanne, even if it is entwined. Some engravers know how to do a corrrect monogram, some not - it depends on the country and the engraver.
In former times, when you wanted to have some objects or flatware engraved you got a heavy book with thousands of monograms. If your initials were TH for example you looked at the pages with different THs in countless styles and choose "your" monogram.

Some of this pages:





Some crowns (from Sweden), but they are similar to the rest of Europe:



Regards
Postnikov

[silverport]

Crowns symbol and Monograms

Hello »Postnikov« et all

Thank you especially for this contribution — it would enlighten some dark if been confronted with Engravings of Crowns and Monograms.

Little notice for the readers: That was a brief guide line in a “field” of much more complexity as maybe ever expected. If your searches don’t match, please look to find specialized literature or sites for consultations.

Theme »Christian name« = »Rufname«; »Fathers name«; »Family name«; »Surname«:

The growing population, and their Administration for several need and reason, has made it necessary to individualize persons.

Here in South-West of Europe, popularly explained by them, their individual »family name« is »fathers name + mothers name« in Spain, and »mothers name + fathers name« in Portugal. But as already »Postnikov« like to clear, it isn’t »fathers name« or »mothers name«; but in reality it is »fathers father fathers surname + mothers father fathers surname« in Spain, and »mothers father fathers surname + fathers father fathers surname« in Portugal.

So it was my mistake in my explanation of some days ago on how to “read” Monograms, to have used the popular saying, instead of the administrative correct definitions.

The transliteration of names and family names differ in almost all countries, if they are written in another language, especially if they are of origin of another “letter” system.

Austrian administrators, but also Emigration officers of the States were often very inventive in creating new names and family names, if the person came from a country of other customs.

Roots research isn’t easy if there were changes in between.

Here in the actual case of the Koch & Bergfeld server spoon, it wouldn’t be easy too. Because »Postnikov« has one of the punches attributed, to be the Rumanian Import mark, in force from Wednesday, the 28 February 1906 on.

Where and for whom were made the engravings of property? Where fit this symbolic crown?

Made already in Bremen, Germany, in the engravers workshop of the Koch & Bergfeld Factory? That was possible too.

From the Importer in Riga, on special order of a client?

In the Grand Duchy of Finland?

In Rumania?

Maybe all of this ends up without any reliable solutions - it's a pity that objects couldn't tell all.

Kind regards silverport

[ktiggeloven]

Thanks for all your information so far. Sorry I didn't include the dimensions. I was very busy with work(Amsterdam Dance Event), so had little time to check the forum. The spoon is in fact 22 cm long and weighs 89 grams. It's bowl is gilded, and both the front and the back of the stem have the full Bremer Lilie decoration. I hope this helps a bit.

thanks again,

Kasper

ps next time I won't leave out dimensions, sorry.

[Qrt.S]

Yes it helps a lot. I immediately withdraw my statement of the spoon being a sugar spoon, it is definitely too big for that. It is a berry spoon as earlier stated.

About the engraving. I'm sorry but I could not find any suitable GA in Finland. Well, in fact I found a lot but without more clues it is impossible to know who it might be.

This is actually a good example of how wrong you can be when the dimensions are not mentioned. On a picture where there is nothing to compare with the size can be anything like in this case. It could as well has been 10 cm/4" or whatever. As a reminder, always give the measures!

Have a nice Sunday.

Qrt.S