Cloisonne box from 1865

[Silbersammler]

Hi,
after I found out now with the help of this forum that some my Russian pieces are falsifications, I have now naturally the fear that they are still more falsifications in my collection. If it is permitted, I would like to present more pictures of my russian pieces in this forum in and to ask the experts here to their opinion.

For me, this box of cloisonne looks absolutely genuine, but I was mistaken already some time, so better do ask here.

Thanks for your help.
Kind regards
Steffen

[Qrt.S]

Well Steffen... how to put this nicely. Your box is sure genuine, but by whom and where it is made is totally another question. Kindly show a front not angled photo of the marks. In addition, show/tell me where are the marks, all marks and what marks (pictures please)? I'm interested and you should be too....

My kind advice to you is that if you collect Imperial Russian silver get some books e.g. Postnikova and start learning the rules for the Russian marking system i.e. what, how, where, when and not to mention outlooks in different eras. This includes bot masters' as well assayers' marks. You will soon find that you have another very interesting hobby which will most likely save you money...lots of money :-)

Have a nice day.
Qrt.S

PS. Please feel free to show other "questionable" objects.

PS. Please also note that the opinions are my personal only.

[Postnikov]

Hi -
to make a long story short - this is another fake you have!
Some explanations why it is a fake ( but this presuppose some knowledge about Russian silver/enamel and its makers - unfortunately you do not have this and relay on good friends or vendors who tell you nonsens). This is no attack on you - I just want to point out how dangerous it is to buy costly antiques without experience or minimal knowledge.

The firm:
Sazikov, founded in 1793 as workshop in Moscow. From 1810 onward the workshop is described as "factory". In 1842 a branche was opened in St. Petersburg and from 1846 the firm had the Imperial Warrant. The business survived until 1917.

The "marks" from left to right:
The mark 8A pretence the 8th Artel (see article "The Russian Artels" on this forum), but in Moscow no 8th Artel existed, only in St. Petersburg existed a 8th Artel, but its mark was 8CA and it is mentioned only 1915 and 1917!
The mark Imperial Eagle (Imperial Warrant) was always over Sazikov´s name in script, not somewhere left of it!
The marks assay master, date and the townmark of Moscow are just a joke!
The mark of the maker САЗИКОВЬ is pure phantasy.

The markmanship of the box:
The twisted wires which build the pattern and later hold the enamel are not correct connected to each other - there are gaps.
The boring pattern of the enamel and the total lack of shading makes it to a very simple, artless and common box.
The glass cabochon as thumbpiece in this form is absolute untypical for boxes.
The general impression: cheap and sloppy - but in no way from Szikov, famous for his work, mainly his enamel.

Regards
Postnikov

[Qrt.S]

Yes Steffen, unfortunately this is the case. I just tried to make a soft landing but now you seem to have a crash landing. Get rid of the box as soon as possible. For you own convenience do as I told you and as Postnikov also did, get the books and start to study. Don't buy anything until you've learned your lessons. Then you don't have to believe in what others are telling you. For the future, study study more and rely on your own eyes and knowledge only, otherwise it will go to the dogs....believe us!

Tut mir leid Steffen

Qrt.S

[Silbersammler]

Dear Qrt.S, dear Postnikov
you two are very kind and friendly, thank you so much for your help.
In case of the box I bought this item short time ago from a serious trader, he told me this item is from a serious collection and gave me warranty that this is no fake and I can bring the box back. I will do soon, so I have not lost any money this time.

But: I have to learn my lesson, you are absolutely right, I will stopp buying russian silver until I understand more of it. I have some books about silver, but not particularly for Russian things. I tried to learn from the web and was watching the auctions of the large auctioneers. But this help me not until now. I also thought I can learn from serious dealers, if they give warranty for the authenticity, I can trust. That was a very very large error. OK, life is here to learn.

What books do you recommand to get more knowledge here?

I will looking for the next "russian" items of my collection and posting it here in some days, I hope, this are not only fakes.

Kind regards, thanks again and have a nice weekend.
Steffen

[oel]

Hi,

To compare herewith a link to the Magazine Antiques, which includes a slideshow with some great Russian cloisonné pieces.
http://www.themagazineantiques.com/articles/faberge/


Regards,

Oel

[Qrt.S]

The only thing I can tell you is DO NOT TRUST DEALERS OR ANYBODY ELSE THAN YOURSELF. The definition of experience is series of mistakes, haven't you already made enough. Teach yourself in order not to make more mistakes. Show the rest of you collection so we can see what you have.

Have a nice weekend

Qrt.s

[Postnikov]

Hi -
a last word before you want to aquire new Russian silver in the future ( all this has been written often and often):
Start slow - with a spoon for example, but spoons are faked too!
Learn as much as you can by visiting museums, exhibitions or by reading the right books. Ask for help from seasoned collectors whom you can ask all your questions, but you have to ask. Do not be shy - there are no stupid questions. We all started as greenhorns. Only stupid people have no questions....
But do not: buy at auctionhouses no matter how famous without the written confirmation that the object is 100% authentic and they will take it back if it is a fake plus a money back guarantee! There are many cases where auctionhouses did not take the fake back, you bought there, or refund. Their "expert" say: "authentic"- your expert say: "100% fake". Result: you can keep it and lost your money. Do not buy from people you do not know or who have no reverences - if they have - call the buyer and ask him your questions - but beware, even references can be faked! The safest way to have no problems is your knowledge!
Do not be greedy - wait and think, use your brain, make some photos of the object + marks(!) and ask the forum. Here are enough real experts who have seen everything and know every trick of the forgers. If they accept the object, you can buy it! Please read my article "Fakes warning" in this forum....

Regards and head up
Postnikov

[Silbersammler]

I will consider your advices; for the first, I have lost any desire to buy further russian silver :-)
Perhaps it is better to collect further things which I understand better (german silver from 19. and 20. century).
In the next week I am on journey, afterwards I want to present here more russian pieces of my collection, from which I believe and hope that they are genuine.

Kind regards and thanks again for your help and friendliness
Steffen