Spoons Russia pre 1917 Help

[hzrbrian]

My British Grandparents lived and worked in Estonia, had to leave in 1917.
Brought back set of 12 spoons which are engraved A H ( Ann Harris ) probably wedding present about 1895. Marks not found ? Any Help appreciated.
Travelled back and forward to England, Great grandfather also worked in russia ( Moscow ) Pics of spoon and marks attached

[Postnikov]

Hi -
your spoons have the Kokoschnik mark for silver weighting less than 8,5 g - in use 1908-1926, townmark (greek letter Delta) of Moscow, silvercontent 84 Zolotniki (875/1000).
The silversmith СЗ (lat. SZ) is unfortunately unknown - i.e. the documents with his and thousands of other names were destoyed to make room in the archives.

Regards
Postnikov

[hzrbrian]

Thank you
I am surprised at the late date, obviosly a present, but not a wedding present, I dont know when Gt Grandfather died,who I believe worked at a flax mill in Kramerski ( owned by Barron Steiglitz ) but he seems the possible source
Many thanks again for filling in a little bit more .

[hzrbrian]

I have just realised the referance to small items. I have weighed a spoon and it is approx 20 grams. does this make the identification invalid ?

[silverport]

Please forgive »Postnikow« his typo.

Hello

It’s hot in Western Europe — typos could happen now a lot.

»Postnikow« liked to mention, that this mark stands for items with more then 8.5 gram total weight each.

By the way, you mention Baron Stieglitz: He was of German ancestry. Banker for Russia, Investor in factories of several product ranges (textiles, metal …) and railways.

For the future of country’s population, but also for his own factory needs, he founded in St. Petersburg an Art- and Design (Drawing) school. He donated the buildings construction, equipment, a collection and several million roubles as basic too.

Baron Alexander L. Stieglitz was from Jewish belief — interestful is his own palace: Façade of two storeys, in symmetrical composition of 13 axes (main entrance axis, plus 12 axes of windows = like Jacob and his twelve sons).

Kind regards silverport

[Postnikov]

Hi silverport - Hi hzrbrian -

thank you for your kind " help" but the original text for this mark ...1) для серебряных, 2) для золотых изделий менее 8,5 гр translate to 1) for silver, 2) for gilded silver wares with less than 8,5 gramms. The Kokoshnik mark looks absolute authentic, the makers mark C3 is a little dubious. Most of the maker´s marks are known (not here), only the names are lost because of the destruction of the files. This spoons were made between 1908-1926, the time when this Kokoshnik mark was in use. Knowing the Russian History I would tend to 1908-1917! They could not be a wedding present for about 1895. If the real weight is appr. 20 gramms for one spoon, we have a little problem - either your scale is not working correct or the spoons (marks) are not correct.

Regards
Postnikov

[Juke]

Hi!

I have stumbled before to this same question about the weight of the item (which is documented to be less than 8,5 grams as Postnikov wrote). I have seen before the same situation that according to the marks the item should weight less than this 8,5 grams but it is clearly over. I have not found any information which should clear this question but I believe if the rule is documented correctly then there must be another reason for these cases, if it is human behavior with overruling the weighting when marking the item or simply making now and then an error when marking small items or something else I can not say. I have also items wrongly marked because of human error but which are authentic.

Anyway I believe that in all these cases the marks are authentic, also in this case. Also as there is knowledge of the origin of these spoons which backups the autenticity. Of course people can always remember wrongly but as I have seen several of these cases I don't see them as possible forgeries. Also there is no big profit possibility to make forgeries of small spoons.

Regards,
Juke

[Qrt.S]

Sometimes it seems to be difficult to exactly know what is the truth. Different sources tell slightly different things.
This is my "understanding" regarding this shovel mark. It is actually a pair to the almost similar oval-shaped mark. Both were introduced in 1898 for items in gold and silver. At that time the main idea was to separate big items from small items. in 1898 the limit was 1/96 of a Russian pound i.e. 1 zolotnik (4,26 grams). The shovel mark indicated a weight < 1 zolotnik and the oval mark a weight > 1 zolotnik pure gold or silver.
As an example: An enameled spoon in silver weights for sure more than 1 or 2 zolotniks, but it is the pure silver(gold) that counts, nothing else. Therefore the weight of a spoon doesn't necessary tell you anything unless you know the alloy, the weight of the enamel etc. Then you can calculate...

Anyway, this 1 zolotnik maximum limit was changed 1908 to count 2 zolotniki (8,53 grams). This lasted until 1927, when the limit was increased to 10 grams. The shovel mark was not changed.

FYI: As from 1954 the mark included also items made in Platinum. From 1959 to 1965 silver was abolished and the mark stood for Au and Pt only. As from 1994 to date it is marked on items in gold only. Platinum got a mark of its own; a rectangular cut-corner shape.

But...as Juke mentioned: Human errors might happen...