Russian Tea Set maker solid Silver? Plate? IVAN LEBEDKIN?

[bigal1963]

Hi Everyone
Thanks for taking a look. I bought this recently at a local market left my loop at home but it looked so nice thought I'd take a chance.
It appears to be Russian and I really no very little about the marks most of the pieces Ive had have had the 84 mark.
None of these have that mark but it is hallmarked every place even on the inside of the tip of the spout. Anyways any help would be great.
Thanks so very much in advance and again JUST A SUPER SITE!!!!
Alan





.

[bigal1963]

Hi Again
As I said there are marks every where. I took a close look and found that the mark with the 84 is on each piece.
Still any help with maker and dating the pieces would be great.
Thanks Again
Alan

.

[Qrt.S]

Nice set you have bought Alan. Its in Russian Tiffany style (Art Nuovo/Jugend) and as such not so common. Its made between 1899-1908 in Moscow. But now I must specify one thing. You mention Ivan Lebedkin, ИЛ, which is correct, but he is the assayer not the maker/master. The assayer is only an official striking his official mark approving that the piece is of qualified silver. In this case the mark with the head (kokoshnik) and 84 (875/1000 or 87,5 %). Compare it with the American mark STERLING or the British Lion Passant mark etc.

The maker's mark is BC or latin VS. Now we are facing difficulties. The initials BC are tricky indeed. He can be almost anyone of these:

Vasily Salomatin
Vasily Semyonovich
Vasily Sergeev
Vasily Sikachev
Vasily Sinelshikov
Vasily Sobakin
Viktor Sokolov
Vasily Sokolov
Vasily Solomatin
...
or somebody else

I really don't know. Maybe somebody else can specify him. Anyway, to my knowledge your piece is marked exactly as it should be marked. Every detachable piece must carry a mark. You have made a good bargain.... Well depending on what you paid for it :) :)
.

[bigal1963]

Wow thanks so much that certainly is way more info than I could have asked for. I would kind of be embarrassed to say what I paid but even a blind squirrel finds an acorn every once in a while.
Again Thanks so much!!!!
Alan
.

[Qrt.S]

You're welcome Alan. However, want you tell me the price you paid? My lips are sealed, I wont tell anybody :-)
.

[Postnikov]

HI-

the beautiful teaset was made by the very good silversmith Semenov Wasilij S., a wellknown silverfactory - you can see the quality!

Hope that helps
.

[Qrt.S]

Kindly tell me how in the earth do you know that? What indicates to that particular master?
.

[Postnikov]

HI -

as I mentioned before: one has to look very sharp if the punch of the master is in an oval, circle, square or rectangel. The punches vary over the years - the smiths do not have one punch! Semenov had a factory - they used many punches, some are more used than the others. As a beginner you look at some book, see one foto of one punch and think that is what I have. In reality this smith had x punches used daily, more or less carefully.Then as a collector I have hundreds of pieces in my posession, have touched and handeld hundreds of pieces in museums and at other collections and learned to recognise the quality of certain masters - so if you are in doubt when you see a punch which could belong to different masters - by seeing or feeling the makeup, the quality or by comparison with known pieces - you know who it is or could/must be. Example: take a genuin Fabergé piece and a fake in your hand, close your eyes and tell me which is the original. If you handle Russian silver long enough and do your homework you never will be disappointed! Semenov, Klingert, Sazikov, Ovtschinnikov, Rückert etc. ect. you recognise from the distance! It is the quality!
For more information have a look at Postnikova-Loseva, page 212, No.2339,2340,2341,2342,2343 all from the same smith but very different. You see how hairy it can be if you have no clue who it could be.
Experience helps a lot! I learn every day something new!!!
Regards
Postnikov
.

[Qrt.S]

You are right about looking carefully on the marks and that is why I'm sometimes hesitating because I'm not sure if I'm right or not. Still I claim that the Russian maker's marks and marks in general aren't as easy as they sometimes seems to be.

I took a new look att the mentioned page. Your bolded number is close but not quiet the same (the B's serifs). But, OK, I buy Semyonov. Actually his is number two on my list. I wrote his patronym instead of his family name. The patronymes sometimes makes me carzy :):):).
.

[Postnikov]

Qrt.s,
immagine you are new to Russian silver. Greedy as you are as a beginner, you take an offer which is to good to be true and buy a cigarette box which is anounced as a true Gustav Klingert. At home you proudly fetch your Postnikova-Loseva and look at page 213 for Klingert (2374, 2375). Suddenly you see there is also Kopilov (2371, 2372, 2373). If you compare 2372 with 2374 - there is no big difference. How can you know who it is and what you have?
(More knowing collectors know, that Kopilov did not made cigarette boxes and that Klingert made much better cigarette boxes.) In your upcoming panic you ask in a silver forum (some blurry fotos included) for help. 40% vote for Klingert, 40% vote against Klingert, 20% tell you it is a nice box but they collect coin silver and can not help you.
Many month later you realise that you bought an ugly fake because you never had a real Klingert box in your hand.
Learning by doing and happy hunting!
Regards
Postnikov
.

[Qrt.S]

Yes, well isn't that more or less what I'm, trying to say; it isn't always so easy to define the right maker, you might have alternatives and hasty decisions can lead to wrong answers. I took a look at the marks, there is a difference big enough to separate the marks.

Actually I don't collect silver as much as you probably do, but I'm interested in the silver (gold) marks and their origin. That is another way of "collecting silver" so to say.

By the way are you familiar with Aleksandr Ivanov's books and N.G Troepolskaja's book? Both about Russian silver marks. Similar to Postnikova's book. Ups, we are out of topic now, sorry.
.