Help with hall mark on napkin ring...

PHOTOS REQUIRED - marks + item
FrankieH
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Help with hall mark on napkin ring...

Post by FrankieH »

Thgsu napkin ring belonged to my late father, whose initials were ALC. However, his grandfather also had ALC as his initials. My father was born in Finland in 1931, his grandfather was born in St Petersburg in 1870. We are about to pass it on to my grandson (sadly not ALC!), born 2022, but would like to find out as much as possible about it.

Is it old enough to have belonged to my great-grandfather? I understand the 84 and the mark next to it could be a very worn St Petersburg mark. I cannot find a maker with the initials PJS or maybe TJS and there is no assay mark. If anyone can confirm the place of manufacture and possible date, I would be very grateful.

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Ubaranda
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Re: Help with hall mark on napkin ring...

Post by Ubaranda »

Saint Petersburg, 1882-1898, the maker is Pekka Johan Silventoinen.
FrankieH
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Re: Help with hall mark on napkin ring...

Post by FrankieH »

Thank you so much - I will pass this info on to my son for his son.
Qrt.S
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Re: Help with hall mark on napkin ring...

Post by Qrt.S »

A bit more info. The master's whole name is Pekka Juhananpoika Silventoinen. He was a Finn born in Parikkala. This municipality is located in the eastern part of Finland close to the Russian border. Pekka was born 17.5.1845 and passed away 27.2.1915. The assaying mark is not missing. It is the punch with the fineness of 84 zolotnik and the town crest of St.Petersburg (crossed anchor, scepter and grapnel.) A nice napkin ring you have.
Qrt.S
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Re: Help with hall mark on napkin ring...

Post by Qrt.S »

Forgot to mention that PJS was active master in ST.P 1886-1908. The ring is made ~1886-1898/99
Mart
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Re: Help with hall mark on napkin ring...

Post by Mart »

The name of the silversmith is Peter ("Pekka") - Adolf son of Johan.
Pekka was born not in 1845, but in 1852.
He died not in 1915, but in 1916. By the way, his daughter is singer Alma Kuula.
You again rewrote the information from the reference book and again it is erroneous. Silventoinen started working before 1886. I think that he moved into the workshop of Johann Lauenen in 1883-1884. Silventoinen continued to work after 1908. In 1913, thieves broke into his workshop. The amount of loss is 3000 rubles. This is not a small amount in those years. He sold his business in St. Petersburg in 1916 and died the same year.
Ubaranda wrote above when the ring was made.
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oel
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Re: Help with hall mark on napkin ring...

Post by oel »

Hi Mart,

Thanks for the detailed information. May we please know the sources you consulted? I have learned through experience that without acknowledging the source, the information often cannot be retrieved and/or studied, which means that researchers and experts cannot accept it as factually correct. Thanks for your cooperation.

Regards,

Peter.
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Re: Help with hall mark on napkin ring...

Post by Mart »

I have previously shown to my favorite opponent the PJS brands before 1886 and after 1908.
Here is the merchant's document of 1895 and the age is indicated there. Further, an advertisement for a silver workshop PJS in 1916 in St. Petersburg. More detailed information can be easily found in the memoirs of Alma Kuula. It also indicates the correct place of birth of the PJS.
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All sources are about 40 documents)))
oel
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Re: Help with hall mark on napkin ring...

Post by oel »

Thanks Mart, all clear to me.

Peter.
Qrt.S
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Re: Help with hall mark on napkin ring...

Post by Qrt.S »

@Mart,

Well Mart, I have just found out that the "Pekka" I have referred to never went to St Petersburg. I have the wrong guy, sorry for that. The problem, however, remains. Who is PJS? In Finland's Parikkala and also Kerimäki (close to the town of Savonlinna.) there are/were several persons by the name of Pekka Silventoinen. The family has an internet page where Pekka is mentioned by name and being a goldsmith but that is all. The hunt for the right guy is continuing.
But please, do not repeatedly make unnecessary comments on what sources I might use. You you have no ideas and cannot have any ideas of that. Thank you.
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Re: Help with hall mark on napkin ring...

Post by oel »

@Qrt.S,

To be taken serious you should always mention your sources.

Peter.
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Re: Help with hall mark on napkin ring...

Post by Qrt.S »

@Oel,
Unfortunately all sources are not fully reliable, not even Postnikova and some others too. Moreover, if you write on these sites, you better not write nonsense, but mistakes can happen to anybody. Nobody is perfect knowing it all. I don't see a problem here. Sometimes sources can be mentioned but it isn't always necessary at all. The language can as well cause problems. The sources I used to find out that "Pekka" de facto never left for Petersburg are in Finnish, so why mention them? Population registers, local telephone directories, address books, etc. etc. are always in local language e.g Russian (Just some examples). Mind my asking, but could you read and understand Marts appendixes? I manged to do it (with some difficulties, but anyway) ...so what would be the advantages? This is not the problem at all that is: Who is PJS? Is he a Finn at all I may ask?
Mart
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Re: Help with hall mark on napkin ring...

Post by Mart »

No problem, anyone can make mistakes. The main thing is to be able to recognize and correct.
1. «…The hunt for the right guy is continuing….»
I wish you good luck in your search! Better to look in the city Kerimäki.
2. «…do not repeatedly make unnecessary comments on what sources I might use. You you have no ideas and cannot have any ideas of that…»
There is one small idea: maybe you named the period of work PJS from here?
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3. For a long time there have been programs that can translate foreign printed text from a picture. Do you still dream that PJS is a Finn and this despite the fact that he was born in Finland? Of course, he may be, for example, a mogul, but there is little chance of this. Earlier, I already wrote where there is information about PJS, if you do not have enough real information.

Now, if you tried to find information about Michel Koskela (his father Jakob), who worked in Moscow in the 1880s, it would be very good.
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oel
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Re: Help with hall mark on napkin ring...

Post by oel »

@Oel,
Unfortunately all sources are not fully reliable, not even Postnikova and some others too. Moreover, if you write on these sites, you better not write nonsense, but mistakes can happen to anybody. Nobody is perfect knowing it all. I don't see a problem here. Sometimes sources can be mentioned but it isn't always necessary at all. The language can as well cause problems. The sources I used to find out that "Pekka" de facto never left for Petersburg are in Finnish, so why mention them? Population registers, local telephone directories, address books, etc. etc. are always in local language e.g Russian (Just some examples). Mind my asking, but could you read and understand Marts appendixes? I manged to do it (with some difficulties, but anyway) ...so what would be the advantages?


@ Qrt.S


Don't whine and make excuses. Name your sources as much as possible. If someone wants to check, read through or investigate the information further, they will know which sources you have consulted. Nothing more nothing less.


Peter.
Qrt.S
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Re: Help with hall mark on napkin ring...

Post by Qrt.S »

@Mart
I will see what I can find. It might take a while.

Anyway, back to "Pekka". He is most likely the master you already mentioned i.e. Petter Adolf Johansson Silvennoin born 27.6.1852 in Kerimäki. His father's name was Johan Pettersson Silvennoin, born 6.9.1820 , d. ? and mother Caisa Tynkkyin born 22.8.1827 d. ?
Moreover, Petter's fathers name was as mentioned Johan and from this Petter's patronymic name Johansson the J in Petter's punch PJS most likely relates to. Moreover, the records tells us more. It is written that Petter Adolf moved 14.12.1868 to St. Petersburg. He was 16 years old.
He is also found in St Mary's church convergence's records as "Silberarbeiter." He was married to Henrika Johanna Häggsson likely 28.7.1883. Petter passed away 31.7.1916.

@Oel
This is especially for you Peter. There is a bit more text to read in the links. Feel free to do it....if you can do it. It is very difficult even for me and that is the reason why I see no reason whatsoever to show unnecessary and difficult links. The quality is very poor, but please here are some of them, please enjoy:
https://digihakemisto.net/item/18519692 ... 725800/106
https://digihakemisto.net/item/1852034739/5821285203/43
https://digihakemisto.net/item/18519692 ... 725800/106

@Mart,
Congratulations to you. You new most of it from the beginning, nice doing. However, a minor correction. The name of the master whose workshop Petter bought in 1885 is Johan Lajunen, born 4.3.1833 in Parikkala master 1866 and dead 2.8.1882 when his second wife Greta Kaisa Kekäläin continued with the workshop to 1885.
Qrt.S
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Re: Help with hall mark on napkin ring...

Post by Qrt.S »

Mart
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Re: Help with hall mark on napkin ring...

Post by Mart »

Thanks for the links!
Qrt.S
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Re: Help with hall mark on napkin ring...

Post by Qrt.S »

Np problem Mart, be my guest. They are useful but sometimes very difficult to read.
Mart
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Re: Help with hall mark on napkin ring...

Post by Mart »

This is normal for me. I have to read old handwritten documents every day. Most often in languages that I don't know at all. Documents related to Ruckert, Klingert, etc. have not been processed so far. This requires a lot of time and translation from handwritten German.
Here, for example, is another silversmith "JW" from your side.
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I think he comes from here:
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FrankieH
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Re: Help with hall mark on napkin ring...

Post by FrankieH »

Qrt.S wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 3:27 pm A bit more info. The master's whole name is Pekka Juhananpoika Silventoinen. He was a Finn born in Parikkala. This municipality is located in the eastern part of Finland close to the Russian border. Pekka was born 17.5.1845 and passed away 27.2.1915. The assaying mark is not missing. It is the punch with the fineness of 84 zolotnik and the town crest of St.Petersburg (crossed anchor, scepter and grapnel.) A nice napkin ring you have.
Thank you for this information. I thought the 84 just showed the quality of the silver and I hoped it might be St Petersburg. However, other silver from this period has the assayer's initials and the year - why would my napkin ring not have this?
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