Set of 12 tea spoons ? in old russian style ?

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silverfan
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Set of 12 tea spoons ? in old russian style ?

Postby silverfan » Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:22 am

The spoons are assayed by Victor Savinski Moscow 1872. The pattern on the back of the bowl the is identical on all of them, but the maker's mark is not clear. Are there two maker's marks or is it only a bad punching? Who is it?
Regards silverfan

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Mart
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Re: Set of 12 tea spoons ? in old russian style ?

Postby Mart » Mon Sep 27, 2021 7:47 am

Look carefully at the second spoon. Perhaps the mark "ИХ" is punched on top of the mark "ИA".

Juke*
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Re: Set of 12 tea spoons ? in old russian style ?

Postby Juke* » Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:35 pm

Hi!

It is not uncommon the silversmiths to be different in a set so sometimes subcontractors have been used to create a set. If the assayer years would be different then it is typical that a set have been upgraded with new spoons.

A tea spoon is longer and bigger than a coffee spoon so these seem to be tea spoons.

Regards,
Juke

silverfan
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Re: Set of 12 tea spoons ? in old russian style ?

Postby silverfan » Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:23 pm

Hi Mart and Juke*,
thanks for your contribution. One spoon is 15,2 cm long and weighs 28 grams (so a tea spoon?). All spoons are marked with 1872 as the year of assay.
But who is/are the possible master/masters ?
Regards silverfan

Juke*
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Re: Set of 12 tea spoons ? in old russian style ?

Postby Juke* » Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:16 am

The best candidate for ИA would be Ivan Mikhailovich Aksenov who worked from 1871 onward. A second candidate is Ivan Alexeev mentioned to have started in 1874 (1876).

There is a good possibility that the spoons with the mark ИХ are by Ivan Hlebnikov as they are from the period before the court supplier period. An other candidate for ИХ would be Johan Heikonen who worked from 1874 onward.

The starting years can vary by a couple of years what is mentioned in the references. If you think the year could be 1892 (instead of 1872) then there are even more candidates.

I think Mart could be correct that the spoons seem to have an overstrike or then a bad punch. There seem to be some rests of a mark (?) beside the ИХ mark. That would indicate also for a subcontractor who made the spoons.

Yes they are typical size of tea spoons. In addition there are jam spoons (which are longer) and mocca spoons (which are smaller than coffee spoons).

silverfan
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Re: Set of 12 tea spoons ? in old russian style ?

Postby silverfan » Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:09 am

Hi Juke*,
thanks again for your information. I carefully examined again my spoons and I confirm that all legible assaymarks are 1872. The master's mark on 7 spoons is IA (Aksenov) and on 3 spoons IX (Klebnikov), twice only A is legible. On my last photo besides the supposed Klebnikov mark you see the rest of another mark above the IX mark but it does not look like the Aksenov mark.
Regards silverfan

Qrt.S
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Re: Set of 12 tea spoons ? in old russian style ?

Postby Qrt.S » Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:37 am

Sorry all, aren't you overseeing something now? The spoons have rather clear Moscow town marks. Johan Heikonen worked in St. Petersburg. (He is rather unknown.). The same for Ilya Aksenov on Serebryany row 13 also in StP. In addition. Ivan Hlebnikov mostly punched ИХ without a frame! Please note: We are talking about MOSCOW! The assayer BC is senior ass. Veniamin Savinsky 1862-1875 in Moscow! I don't think Hlebnikov (founded 1870 in Moscow) is the case here, but?
@Silverfan
I would like to see better pictures of the marks, thank you in advance.

Juke*
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Re: Set of 12 tea spoons ? in old russian style ?

Postby Juke* » Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:51 am

Quite right, Qrt.S is correct. I just checked the masters from Ivanov without thinking of the town, should have used also the PL for reaffirmation.

Anyway Ivan Alexeev worked in Moscow so could be him for ИA. Could not find a master with ИХ in Moscow.

Helpful would of course be better pictures of the marks if they would happen to be something else than ИA and ИХ.

Qrt.S
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Re: Set of 12 tea spoons ? in old russian style ?

Postby Qrt.S » Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:17 am

Please check from Ivanov how many Alekseevs worked in Moscow at approx. the same time. Do the same with Postnikova and you will be surprised!!!

As I already requested, better pictures of the marks please! Thank you.

Mart
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Re: Set of 12 tea spoons ? in old russian style ?

Postby Mart » Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:48 am

When the topic is spoons, the best candidate is Ivan Andreev (Matryona Andreeva's husband). Perhaps Ivan Alexandrov.
If you manage to see the brand "ИA" under the mark "ИХ", then perhaps the spoons were sold in Khlebnikov's store.

silverfan
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Re: Set of 12 tea spoons ? in old russian style ?

Postby silverfan » Wed Sep 29, 2021 5:54 am

I made photos of the mark on all 12 spoons. I hope they are clear enough.
Regards silverfan

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silverfan
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Re: Set of 12 tea spoons ? in old russian style ?

Postby silverfan » Sat Oct 02, 2021 11:38 am

I did my home work but nobody took notice.
Regards silverfan

Qrt.S
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Re: Set of 12 tea spoons ? in old russian style ?

Postby Qrt.S » Sat Oct 02, 2021 11:59 am

Zot, zot! All in good time...patience... These matters take time...

Juke*
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Re: Set of 12 tea spoons ? in old russian style ?

Postby Juke* » Sun Oct 03, 2021 5:06 am

As the initials are clearly ИA and ИХ I believe Mart gave the answer so the firm Hlebnikov has retailed the spoons (thereby their overstruck) and the best candidate as the subcontractor is Ivan Andreev (Matryona Andreeva's husband) or perhaps Ivan Alexandrov. If there are no other candidates suggested more.

Why only part of the spoons are overstruck can simply be a human factor. It is always a risk to overstrike on the spoon stem as it easily can get broken, thereby they didn't want to take the risk on all the spoons.

Qrt.S
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Re: Set of 12 tea spoons ? in old russian style ?

Postby Qrt.S » Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:04 pm

A very acceptable assumption from Juke. I'll buy it!


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