triangular maker mark?

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darwinbot
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triangular maker mark?

Postby darwinbot » Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:48 am

Hi, newbie here :)
I came accross a nice sigarette case, and have been researching the marks a bit, but I can't seem to find any mention of Russian makers' marks inscribed in a triangle as this one is...
Could anyone give me a bit more insight as to whether this might be a fake?

Image
Image

Thanks :)

Mart
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Re: triangular maker mark?

Postby Mart » Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:12 am

Hello!
Don't worry, this is the brand of a Moscow master (1908-1917, possibly before 1927). It is often found on cigarette cases.

darwinbot
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Re: triangular maker mark?

Postby darwinbot » Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:27 am

Thanks :)

AG2012
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Re: triangular maker mark?

Postby AG2012 » Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:43 am

Hi,
This is documented maker in Moscow after 1908.Reference number 2714 in Postnikova-Loseva book.
Russian Art Nouveau is known as Ар-нувo, Моде́рн(elements seen on your cigarette case).
Things like this one are extremely difficult to fake and therefore, not profitable.
All said, it is nice,genuine,Russian Art Nouveau after 1908.But badly corroded (not patina) and I suggest vigorous cleaning otherwise it will penetrate even deeper into the silver.
Regards

Mart
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Re: triangular maker mark?

Postby Mart » Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:02 am

AG2012 wrote:Hi,
Reference number 2714 in Postnikova-Loseva book.

I'm not sure what exactly "НБ" is there.

AG2012
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Re: triangular maker mark?

Postby AG2012 » Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:42 am

This is the mark:
Image

(Unknown maker, after 1908. Ladies engraved silver handbag in Moscow State Historical Museum).

Mart
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Re: triangular maker mark?

Postby Mart » Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:53 am

AG2012 wrote:This is the mark.

This is just a fuzzy drawing. I think that I have seen the brands of this master no less than PL. I would like to see a real brand where the first letter is clearly "Н", and, for example, not "И".

AG2012
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Re: triangular maker mark?

Postby AG2012 » Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:38 am

In the image from PL letter "И" is impossible because oblique line does not run to the top of right vertical line.
Besides, it would be too much coincidence to contemplate another maker with everything matching 100%.
In a word, that is the maker of the discussed cigarette case.

Mart
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Re: triangular maker mark?

Postby Mart » Wed Sep 22, 2021 11:08 am

I have a different opinion.
I don't use the PL book in attributions (except for some provincial cities), because there are too many errors there.
You do not consider the image of, for example, a girl in a kokoshnik from this book to be authentic))) These are just drawings, not photos.
I repeat, I would just like to see a brand in which the first letter (И or H) is very clearly visible.
Image
Image

Qrt.S
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Re: triangular maker mark?

Postby Qrt.S » Thu Sep 23, 2021 4:03 am

@Mart
FYI!
The "pictures" of marks in Postnikov are not "just drawings". They are called soot marks and taken from an original mark!

Mart
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Re: triangular maker mark?

Postby Mart » Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:32 am

I do not claim that the marks are taken from the sky. I'm talking about possible errors.
Many marks are difficult to read correctly for various reasons. It cannot be excluded that some of Postnikova's drawings contain errors. Some drawings are simply not correct.
I hope the drawings of the marks of the 20th century are not samples for attribution.)))
Here are three more examples where the letters are read incorrectly and drawn incorrectly. НМ,МН,ДК(АК).
Image
Image
Image
Image

AG2012
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Re: triangular maker mark?

Postby AG2012 » Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:40 am

The point of the discussion was not about the first letter in maker`s initials, but whether the shown mark is 2714 in PL.
Facts: we have a triangular mark of unknown Moscow maker working after 1908 in Art Nouveau, skilled engraver.His initials are either НБ or ИБ,latter less likely. 2714 in PL.

What I mean, this must be the mark 2714 in PL because of practically zero probability there was another maker in Moscow at the same time who used the same triangular mark and whose family name started also with Б.
Conclusion: regardless of Н or И THIS IS 2714 MARK IN PL.

Mart
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Re: triangular maker mark?

Postby Mart » Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:13 am

We probably just didn't understand each other.
I absolutely do not care what number this mark has and in which book. It is important to know the initials of the master for his correct attribution. There are enough cigarette cases with the brand "ИБ" at this time, but in a different form. The first letter of the mark is still unknown to me.

AG2012
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Re: triangular maker mark?

Postby AG2012 » Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:31 am

I absolutely do not care what number this mark has and in which book.


Well done, the statement that spoke volumes.

Qrt.S
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Re: triangular maker mark?

Postby Qrt.S » Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:36 am

Agree with AG2012

@Mart
You should care about info in books. If not, what is the alternative? Yes, the marks you show 3893-3897 ARE drawings and lousy ones too, but the rest are soot marks. Yes, most of us are aware of the errors in Postnikova, but that was not the point here! Yes again, I know 13 НБ marks and 29 ИБ marks, but how many of those are in a triangular shield? Not many I can tell! Not to talk about their working periods fitting with the right looking kokoshnik!
I would be interested in knowing what books (or other sources) you are using as a reliable ones? To my knowledge there are not many if at all better books than Postnikova irrespective of its faults. Please, do not tell me that your source is Ivanov or other forums!

Mart
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Re: triangular maker mark?

Postby Mart » Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:25 am

The alternative is my own archives, state archives, books of those years, reports on exhibitions, population census, advertisements, death dates, research, knowledge exchange with researchers and a lot of work)))
If Postnikova had thoroughly investigated each stamp, she would have written her book in our time.))) If there are hundreds of errors in the book, then why should I trust it? She did an important thing, but this is not enough for my attributions. The masters could change their last name, go to another factory, and then return, have the same initials, etc. Why do I need to know if there is some kind of master's mark in Postnikova's book, if I can look at the sources of those years myself?
ИН или НБ. The master could change his mark at least every year. Some did so.The period of the second kokoshnik is almost 20 years.
I do not use Postnikova's book except for some provincial cities. Sometimes I take note of information from Ivanov or Skurlov, which contains specific information or documents. For example, when the information contains a specific presentation of jewelry by the master to the assay chamber.


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