I believe this cup is 18th century Russian?

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legrandmogol
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I believe this cup is 18th century Russian?

Postby legrandmogol » Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:32 am

I don't normally venture into Russian silver because I know nothing about it and it seems to require a bit of additional study to avoid fakes. However I bought this cup as German in origin and when I was looking into where it might be from, most of the examples with a similar design show up as Russian. Also, the makers mark appears to be Cyrillic as I could not find any examples of European hallmarks using an E like this. Also if anyone has any idea on the symbolism here I would appreciate some insight. I recognize the sacred heart over a wreath of thorns but the other 2 are a mystery. The hand coming from the cloud with a torch or flower resembles the Tarot Card 'The Ace of Wands' but I would be surprised if this is what they are trying to convey here.

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AG2012
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Re: I believe this cup is 18th century Russian?

Postby AG2012 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:10 am

Hi,The only Russian maker starting with э I know was Erik Kolin.Besides,Russia had well established assaying system in XVIII century,meaning more marks are needed.
I think it is not Russian and the mark is HE
Regards

legrandmogol
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Posts: 407
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Re: I believe this cup is 18th century Russian?

Postby legrandmogol » Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:28 am

ok, as I stated I know nearly nothing about Russian silver but from what I can gather (and then only from small bits on the internet), Peter the Great implemented a hallmarking system c.1700. I can't really find any pieces with official-looking hallmarks from before the 1730s and then only from St. Petersburg and Moscow. Everywhere else seems to catch up later. If you can share some more info on early Russian silver (1750 and older) and preferably with examples or references I would be very grateful. I am always looking to expand my silver library.

AG2012
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Re: I believe this cup is 18th century Russian?

Postby AG2012 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 11:02 am

Ivanov book in two volumes 1600 - 1926 (not always with images of the marks,but comprehensive).
Download volume 1 and 2 in PDF format here:
http://www.pseudology.org/Bank/Ivanov_M ... Dela1a.pdf
http://www.pseudology.org/Bank/Ivanov_M ... Dela2a.pdf

Regards

legrandmogol
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Re: I believe this cup is 18th century Russian?

Postby legrandmogol » Wed Jul 29, 2020 11:27 am

Thank you for the download and your help. If anyone else knows where this might be from I would appreciate it as well.

Qrt.S
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Location: Helsinki Finland

Re: I believe this cup is 18th century Russian?

Postby Qrt.S » Thu Jul 30, 2020 1:59 am

For the records:
The famous Fabergé master the Finn Erik Kollin 1868-1901 never used Cyrillic letters in his punch. This is a common misunderstanding. Kollin used his Latin initials, i.e. EK only. The maker who used ЭК was Eduard Kortman in St. Petersburg around 1848-1913 (IV #2088).

Like AG2012 already stated, This hardly an old Russian object. What are the measures? It is advisable to always tell height, length, diameter...
A matchbox or a coin on the same picture is of great help. From a picture with nothing to compare with one can only guess...

legrandmogol
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Re: I believe this cup is 18th century Russian?

Postby legrandmogol » Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:19 am

It indeed it may not be Russian, when I bought it, it was described as German and I thought it was as well. However, I went through all of the hallmarks at Theodrichs comprehensive Silberpunze, which has hundreds if not possibly thousands of pictures of German and some near German hallmarks, and none of the letters E in the hallmarks look like this. Then when searching online I found a few major auction houses and antique sellers also had cups that were nearly identical in design to this one and were described as 18th century Russian and many had Russian hallmarks (Not all though). If anyone is interested I will send the links but I don't believe I am allowed to post them here or even their pictures as I don't own the rights. However, if you simply google '18th-century Russian beaker' you'll find many of my examples such as at Sotheby's and Bukowskis.
Again, I am not saying that this means the piece is definitely Russian, I am just trying to explain why I first thought it was. I didn't just pull it out of thin air. I appreciate everyones thoughts on this so please don't think I am being argumentitive I am just very confused.
So if it is not Russian, and I am pretty sure its not German, what is it?
Qrt.s, I have attached some photo's for scale
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