Moscow tea spoons unkown maker

PHOTOS REQUIRED - marks + item
Arizona
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Moscow tea spoons unkown maker

Postby Arizona » Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:25 pm

Image


Image

Arizona
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Re: Moscow tea spoons unkown maker

Postby Arizona » Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:29 pm

84 purity hallmark, Moscow town mark, 1872 date and Viktor Savinkov (BC) assayer. Any clue of the maker? I read AKЛ but I can't find anything about it.

dognose
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Re: Moscow tea spoons unkown maker

Postby dognose » Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:46 am

Hi,

Please post images of all of the marks.

Trev.

Arizona
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Re: Moscow tea spoons unkown maker

Postby Arizona » Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:20 am

Image

Image

Arizona
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Re: Moscow tea spoons unkown maker

Postby Arizona » Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:21 am

The spoons are thinner than the hallmark, so I need various to show you the full hallmark.

AG2012
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Re: Moscow tea spoons unkown maker

Postby AG2012 » Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:56 am

Hi,
Vasiliy Semenov in Moscow (B dot C) in PL book number 2340
Another BC in Moscow at the time had no dot between B and C.
Regards

AG2012
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Re: Moscow tea spoons unkown maker

Postby AG2012 » Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:28 am

Sorry, B.C is the assayer.

Arizona
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Re: Moscow tea spoons unkown maker

Postby Arizona » Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:03 am

Thanks AG2012, could you mention the whole name of the source? I am finding contradictory and not very accurate info in the internet. Also Viktor Savinkov does have a dot in between the letters but it higher positioned?
Any clues about the maker anyway?

AG2012
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Re: Moscow tea spoons unkown maker

Postby AG2012 » Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:42 am

These are BC for Vasiliy Semenov from Skurlov but without marks shown.
СЕМЕНОВ Василий Семенович, владелец фабр. сер. изд., основанной в 1852 г. В 1870 г. имел 30 раб., год. оборот 30 тыс. руб. в 1873 г. — 40 раб., год. оборот 75 тыс. руб. Производил главн. образом, сер. изд. с чернью. Участник выставок: 1867 г. — Париж, 1870 г. — СПб, где получил серебр. медаль, 1873 г. — Вена, 1876 г. — Филадельфия, 1882 г. — Москва, где получил серебр. медаль. Дело продолжала дочь — Семенова Мария Васильевна. В 1905 г. имел 100 раб. Постникова—Лосева: клейма №№ 2339 — 2342.
СЕМЕНОВ Василий, 1874: 37 л.
СЕМЕНОВ Василий, 1861: крестьянин, СДМ, 1885: серебр. завед. Клеймо: B. C.

Qrt.S
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Re: Moscow tea spoons unkown maker

Postby Qrt.S » Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:26 pm

Mind my saying but just forget Semenov, he has nothing to do with this spoon!

B.C is the assayer not the maker as Arizona already stated! However, he is not the phantom assayer Viktor Savinkov who doesn't even exist even if the initials BC (Latin VS) are often erroneously connected to him in many books, Postnikova included. It is a fatal mistake. Anyway, because the dot is not centralized, he is Viktor Savinsky in Moscow 1856(59?)-1894. The spoon's stem is so thin that it looks like the year below the initials are missing. Nonetheless, from the other mark you can see it being 1872.

As to the maker whose initials seems to be AKЛ (maybe, blurry photo), I unfortunately have no name to come up with. He is one of the numerous nameless marks in Russia.

Arizona
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Re: Moscow tea spoons unkown maker

Postby Arizona » Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:54 pm

AG2012, I meant to ask where (in which book) it was published, but if is a book in Russian then I wont be able to read it... Qrt.S , you point that there are numerous nameless makers in Russia? was not any official register of silversmiths?? not even in Moscow?? I find it quite surprising, but I guess that is how it it is. I am new in the silver world, and appreciate a lot your help.

Goldstein
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Re: Moscow tea spoons unkown maker

Postby Goldstein » Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:45 pm

Hi Arizona -

it is very normal that Russian silver is best covered by Russian books! All the relevant good books are in Russian language.
The only book in English is by G.Watts - but there are like in all books some mistakes/errors. Better than nothing....
Start slow, ask the knowing and learn, learn, learn!

Image

Regards
Goldstein

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Re: Moscow tea spoons unkown maker

Postby Goldstein » Sat Feb 09, 2019 6:00 pm

Hi Arizona -

maybe you have heared of the Russian Revolution 1917 -- and the effects on cultural goods, archives and museums - not to mention the immense treasures of the Tsar's court, which were destroyed, plundered or sold abroad. Red terror at its best ....
It is not only important to know the marks - you must know the history and the background - and of course a little of the language.

To buy something you do not know and than ask others is the direct way to financial losses and frustration.

Regards
Goldstein

Arizona
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Re: Moscow tea spoons unkown maker

Postby Arizona » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:41 pm

Hi Goldstein, thank you so much for the book! that is a good lead. I agree in the point that you make about history. That was my major actually. And I am enjoying way more learning about historical facts, kings, economy, events and cultural processes through silver than in boring exams. I find it amazing that the silver can tell us so many human stories with its style, the hallmarks, the scarcity (in this case), and many other variables. I hope to keep learning about it more and more every day, and every piece that I buy. Then, I have to disagree a little bit, to buy something I don't know and asking others (usually google) it has been always a really fulfilling and financial gains. I rarely buy over the price of scrap silver. But I think I get the point of what you meant, in the sense of collecting without information it leads to failure.

(admin edit - see Posting Requirements )

To add something about your info about the Russian revolution and its effects in silver: it started in 1905, and one of the many things that the people did to protest against the Tsar was to withdraw all their savings (silver coins) from the state bank, forcing the Empire to melt its own silver to pay its debts.

Qrt.S
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Re: Moscow tea spoons unkown maker

Postby Qrt.S » Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:35 am

@Arizona
There are many problems with the Russian silver marks. First of all I'd like to point out that the revolution in 1917 was not the main reason to lost information and lost registers. It happened long before. In the mid 19th century there was a big fire in the Russian archives that destroyed a lot of documentation. In 1872 an idiot to civil servant noted that the archives were overcrowded and should be emptied. He got a brilliant idea that unnecessary documents should be burned to make space for more relevant and necessary documentation. After an injunction in 1873, approx. 350,000 papers containing information on crafts, guilds, registers of goldsmiths etc., etc. were burned. The officials got the needed space but we suffer from this today. That is the main reason for the unknown names etc..

Secondly to the book suggested by Goldstein. The sad thing is that there is very little literature in English regarding Russian silver. The book in questions is unfortunately and nicely said not much to put in the Christmas tree. One have to be very careful when one reads it. I have read it, believe me...I almost cried...

Start with reading the Russian sites here on 925. They will provide you with more sufficient and vital information about the Russian marks and system. Also read this link. It will provide you with the basics: https://www.925-1000.com/Frussia.html

AG2012
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Re: Moscow tea spoons unkown maker

Postby AG2012 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:45 am

Also, bear in mind the presumption of innocence applied to Russian silver:
``innocent until proven guilty``

``fake unless proven genuine``

Unfortunate truth due to flooding fakes,either completely newly made or old silver ``Russified`` with fake marks.

Qrt.S
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Re: Moscow tea spoons unkown maker

Postby Qrt.S » Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:01 am

Quite right AG2012...

Arizona! Take a look at this thread http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic ... 46&t=52743 "Nice" object but....

Arizona
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Re: Moscow tea spoons unkown maker

Postby Arizona » Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:50 pm

I didn't knew about the imperial archiving "logistic challenges" but that explains a lot. But sure, I saw that post, and I was not surprised, whatever has a hight value tends to be copied and faked, and that is why I run away from this kind of objects. I mostly collect "whatever" it comes to my hands cheap. I know is not going to build a "gourmet" collection like that but it a good way of learning about hallmarks. I guess the more I learn the more I will specialize in a particular time, style, region... but actually I like the variety I have. Thanks all for the info, learning, learning and learning.

Qrt.S
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Re: Moscow tea spoons unkown maker

Postby Qrt.S » Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:59 am

@Arizona
No, no and NO! To collect everything that you stumble into will lead to that your collection sooner or later looks like a scrap yard. What you should do is specialize in a few countries you are interested in and learn everything about their silver marking procedures and history and skip the rest. I myself know quite a lot regarding Finnish, Scandinavian and Russian (including Baltic) silver but hardly anything except for the basics regarding e.g. French silver. This is how it is done if you like to become more than a diletante in these circles.

Arizona
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Re: Moscow tea spoons unkown maker

Postby Arizona » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:50 pm

Thanks Qrt.S, I asked in the General forum about beginning tips, for me and for other beginners that could find it interesting. It is true that "jack of all, master of none". Please let us know about any tips if you have in the general forum!


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