Russian Hallmark Identification

PHOTOS REQUIRED - marks + item
cpete369
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Russian Hallmark Identification

Postby cpete369 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:40 pm

Hello. I am hoping that someone with more knowledge and resources than myself will possibly help with some identification of these hallmarks on this candlestick. City, maker, age and any other information one might be able to ascertain from the images is appreciated. Thank you.
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Qrt.S
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Re: Russian Hallmark Identification

Postby Qrt.S » Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:32 am

The Russian mark (ПТ...) is their import mark. It is an abbreviation of "imported goods" (ПРИВОЗНЫХ ТОВАРОВ) in Russian. The other marks M and 84 are either the exporter's mark of possibly the maker's mark. I have no idea of the country of origin, but one thing is for sure, it isn't Russian made but imported to Russia between 1882-1899.

Dad
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Re: Russian Hallmark Identification

Postby Dad » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:24 pm

Yes. Qrt.S are right. It's russian import mark (84, eagle,ПТ). But, period before 1882.
"Eagle" - assay office mark. Most possibly it is Warsaw.
Country of producing was Germany. ( most possibly)

Best Reg...

Qrt.S
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Re: Russian Hallmark Identification

Postby Qrt.S » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:43 am

Yes, mostlikely imported via Warsaw or maybe Minsk...?

But, mind my saying Dad, kindly take a look at "Пробирный Устав от Февраля 1882 года"...Кроме остновных рассмотренных выше клейм, Инструкцией 1882 года вводиаисьдополительные: специалное клеймо для ПРИВОЗНЫХ ТОВАРОВ ... In other words as from 1882, not before.

This punch ПТ was the first Russian import mark. Before 1882 imported goods were brought by the customs to the Russian assay office in order to verify the lowest legal fineness of 84 zolotniki (875/1000) before the import. If the fineness was not less than 84, the import was granted and the assayer punched his hallmark on it. If not, the import was rejected. Therefore you can nowadays find such "Russian hallmarked" objects without a Russian maker's mark on the market sold as "Russian made", which they of course are not but imported from some other country, often Germany. This has been told many times in many threads through the years here. Use the search function and you will find more to read about Russian import and its marks.

In addition, before it became clear that this ПТ-mark actually was a Russian import mark, it was believed that ПТ was an unknown assayer's initials.

Dad
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Re: Russian Hallmark Identification

Postby Dad » Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:31 am

Dear Ort's. Why you argue? I thought that you already accepted the fact: in 1882 the hallmarks of the Russian Empire was changed only in additive of "notches" in an old type of marks. And now you forgot again?))
Assay Law of 1882 told about marks for import silver very little. I don't know where you took your fragment ( Russian).
Special marks for foreign products appeared much earlier, at the end of the 1840th years.
The Assay Law of 1861 already writes about special brands for import goods and about rules of their punching.

From 1861:


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Qrt.S
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Re: Russian Hallmark Identification

Postby Qrt.S » Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:42 am

@Dad
I'm not arguing, I just read it from Green Ivanov on page 156 and163. There is even a photo of the import mark. The assay charter of July 13, 1861 says nothing about the import mark in question. Please verify!

Qrt.S
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Re: Russian Hallmark Identification

Postby Qrt.S » Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:07 pm

Well Dad I have now carefully investigated and read the text you sent. Unfortunately I'm not capable of argue with you about the Russian language. My Russian skills are not even close to good Russian or your native tongue.

Anyway, in the text you provided is nothing mentioned about a particular import mark. What is actually written is that a hallmark (пробирныхъ клеймъ, what you also underlined) is punched on accepted imported goods. Not a single word of a ПРИВОЗНЫХ ТОВАРОВ КЛЕЙМ (imported goods mark). Now we are back to basics. I have to repeat what I have earlier stated. Before 1882 imported goods were marked with the assayer's hallmark only. That is exactly in accordance with your text. I still keep my opinion on that the actual new import mark ПТ was introduced not earlier than in 1882.

cpete369
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Re: Russian Hallmark Identification

Postby cpete369 » Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:16 pm

Thank you everyone for your information and thoughts, I appreciate it very much.


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