Captain spoons

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Hose_dk
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Captain spoons

Postby Hose_dk » Fri Nov 13, 2009 1:41 pm

In Denmark skipperskeer, but they are not known to many people. In the Netherlands and other places ships-brokers spoon - Oostzeelepel - Baltic Spoon - Kapiteinslepel - Riga lepel
Many names for the forum dictionary they are all representing the same thing.
Back in time especially in the cities of the Baltic sea ships agents had a tradition. They gave spoons for the ships captain. We have 2 different ways of looking at this tradition. Some write that it was a token of appresiation towards the ships captain for the use af the agents services. Another version is that it was a gifth for the captain to motivate him to bring the ship back home in good condition. For the firstmate in case that the cargo was in good condition.
I have also heard the expresion "cloth for a new hat" and the word Kaplak. Kaplak is a percentage of the cargo. That amount was for the captain and also it should motivate him NOT to go below deck when the whether was rough. Kaplak comes from kaplagen (Netherlands)
Today we realised that this amount comming from the owner of the cargo - well if the captain receives money from more than one person - whoes interest will he fulfill? Today the law of the sea (in danish sølov) §60 states that all allowance received by the charterer shall be passed on to the ships owner..
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Hose_dk
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Postby Hose_dk » Fri Nov 13, 2009 1:54 pm

This spoon was stolen from me - just bought it - but it never arrived - disappered in the post. So I use sellers pictures and they are not wery good.
Image Image Image
I have seen this before R. Kleyenstüber & co it says. Sorry that we cannot see the marks, They would have been usefull for further research. I know that maker is Ernst Ludwig Kecker, born approx 1813/1819, active in Königsberg since before 1848 dead 1886.
As we cannot see the year mark we cannot come closer to production.
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Hose_dk
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Postby Hose_dk » Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:18 pm

Further research could have been good. The company name on back of the spoon - and only R. Kleyenstüber & co.
That company might be the same as Robt. Kleyenstüber Schiffs Mäkler Königsberg.
When I say might be the same - my meaning is - did they operate several companies like today?
These spoons also by Kecker Q and R (same lot) and Q (another lot) are from 1858 and 1859.
Image Image Image Image

The engraving include more and is made on front of the spoons. Not to discrete - marks are at back of spoons so is assayers scratch mark.
more to follow....
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Hose_dk
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Postby Hose_dk » Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:22 pm

Forgot this. Rederie Kleyenstüber
Image
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Hose_dk
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Postby Hose_dk » Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:03 pm

At one occation I tryed to buy a spoon from Pillau with LLOYDS SHIP AGENTS engraved but price was to high. Pilau = Baltiysk today.
I have see pictures of Ernst Castell from Königsberg and Mayer & Comp. Reval (Tallin)
Image
Jacob Harmsen Jun Libau, Benj. Schmidt Pillau, Hans Diedr Schmidt Pernau
Image
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Hose_dk
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Postby Hose_dk » Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:22 pm

I had better luck with this spoon from Riga.
http://www.netherlandsembassy.lv/data/f ... -_1800.pdf
this large pdf - go to the last 3 pages.

Image Image Image Image

Fantastic to find a text explaning both Schröder and Knut

Christoph Barthold Knuth (or Cnuth) active 1834-1864.
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Hose_dk
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Postby Hose_dk » Sat Nov 14, 2009 4:08 am

when I tryed to by the Pillau spoon I saved the pictures.
Image Image Image Image Image
I trust that seller dont mind me using the pictures as we talk research. So please allow me.

I think that it is importent that we get as many connections between maker and shipsmaker. Perhabs we can make a list. Picture from book contains 4 spoons and 3 names. One of the spoons is without engraving. As they are at a museum we must assume - tradition/proviniens is the case.
Later I will show 2 other perhabs spoons.
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Hose_dk
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Postby Hose_dk » Sat Nov 14, 2009 8:58 am

At an auktion in Sweden I bought 2 spoons describes as "proberly captains spoons". What is proberly? is it equal to "I whish they where" - whishfull dreams or does it contain an amount of proberbility?
I asked the auktionhouse and they said - info from seller and he was a collector. Now he might have had info from origin - in that case it has gone today.
On the other hand - what is the proberbility that a swede buyes 2 different spoons from 2 different makers - in Königsberg - and return to Sweden. He could be a export seller or he could be a diplomate (but they buy a set not 2 single spoons) Both spoons carry the initials (prik engraved) ACB
Marks from 2 differnt makers Y=1841 and B=1844. The spoons are 21,5 cm and 34 gram & 23,0cm and 36 gram so they dont realy fit.
I have search the spoons for trace of older engraving and on one of two spoons remains from engraving is visible. It will never be read - do damaged. Someone have done work to remove.
Image Image Image Image Image Image

If we could establish a list of shipping companies and their relationship to silversmith - like Riga Schröder relationship to Christoph Barthold Knuth and in 1832 Schröder works with Georg Michael Vendt activ 1805 to 1854.
The question does Thun or C. Zimmerman work with shipping?
Is that the case, then the theory is supported. (but still speculation).
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Hose_dk
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Postby Hose_dk » Sat Nov 14, 2009 9:20 am

here to search for flag and names.
http://www.allstates-flag.com/fotw/flags/de~hf.html
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dognose
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Postby dognose » Sat Nov 14, 2009 12:15 pm

Hi Hose,

Many thanks for starting this fascinating project that has long demanded further research.

Here is one from 'Hagan & Co' of Pillau.

The spoon is 9" (23cm) in length.

Image

Image

Image

Trev.
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dognose
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Postby dognose » Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:37 pm

Another pair of tablespoons marked with the name of 'Hagen & Co.' of Pillau, but this time the maker is 'Krickhan'. The date letter and engraving both match for 1841.

The spoons are 9 1/2" (24cm) in length.

Image

Image

Image

Trev.
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dognose
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Postby dognose » Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:02 pm

Hi Hose,

I'm not sure about these, what do you think?


Image

Image

Image

Trev.
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Hose_dk
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Postby Hose_dk » Thu Nov 19, 2009 5:59 am

I have search for reederei unger and also combined it with 1825. But I cannot find any reederei with that name.
Have you found them?
Also maker - have you any idea where the spoons are from? That could limit search.

If you ask me now - with my present knowledge - I would say that C G Unger received these spoons in 1825 at birthday or similar.
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dognose
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Postby dognose » Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:22 am

Hi Hose,

No, I have never found the origin of these spoons. My thinking that they were perhaps Kaplak was because firms like Hagans would have, presumably, a stock of these spoons for distribution as required, often with the year engraved upon them. But if these spoons were a birthday or anniversary gift, would they not have the actual date of that event rather than just the year engraved on them?

How do you read the maker's name? 'Gampaer' maybe?

Trev.
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Hose_dk
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Postby Hose_dk » Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:35 am

Yes you could argue that.
I usually say "People of Königsberg also had to eat". When I see/hear this possible.

G or C for the first letter. It might very well be C
G/Ce(i)mp(a)er and the last e might be an i instead. Difficult to read and thereby difficult to google.
I will download med picture and send it to a friend of me.

The 2 letters I have put in () are letters that might be there or they minght not.

regarding date - that is correct but I have seen several things that contain only year.
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Hose_dk
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Postby Hose_dk » Sun Nov 22, 2009 2:16 pm

From Postnikov - and thank you for that one.
Image
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Hose_dk
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Postby Hose_dk » Thu Nov 26, 2009 11:31 am

So my spoon disappered during post has returned to seller. Nobody stole it it just disappered, but now it is back and we try sending it again. In a few days we can see better pictures.

Regarding Gamber one person has checked Schefflers "Ostpreussen" no result. Another has checked several books without any luck.
Again another person (no 3) has a double struck spoon same mark. Where maker struck twice on top of each other - that person points at Norway. In that case captain spoon is out of the question.

I am sure that untill we find a match we can exclude captain spoon.

By the way one mention the danish letter æ - that could be correct.
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silvermistletoe
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Postby silvermistletoe » Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:26 pm

dognose wrote:Hi Hose,

I'm not sure about these, what do you think?


Image

Image

Image

Trev.


Silversmith Gamper Christoph Heinrich Wilhelm ca 1818- ca 1836.
Libau (Liepāja), Latvia, Courland.
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dognose
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Postby dognose » Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:45 pm

Hi Silvermistletoe,

Welcome to the Forum.

Thank's for providing us with this information and solving the mystery.

Trev.
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silvermistletoe
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Postby silvermistletoe » Thu Dec 10, 2009 1:09 pm

At the time, Liepāja is known, two masters with this name. I think that the spoon is about to Christoph Heinrich Gamper. The shipping and ships with this spoon, I think, is negligible.
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