What is this tool, no marks, but probably American

[Francais]

interesting catalog
Ok I am perfectly willing to go with a claret spoon. But first I would like to see a picture of a claret spoon with a pointed bowl, that has a thick ridge down the middle of the outside of the bowl. I will leave out the faceted handle and spatula end. I used a picture from ages ago. I obviously need to show the bowl better. I am not trying to be difficult, I would happily go with claret spoon, if I could find one similar. Quite honestly I don't know if I even knew what a claret spoon was, before beginning this discussion. It is obviously one of those late Victorian inventions for people who want one of everything. My understanding is they were used to pick up fruit. This piece would perhaps be good for picking up a peanut, or a raisin, but not fruit. I wouldn't casually disagree casually with anyone, let alone Wev on silver, but I am willing to bet this is not a claret spoon. Except for cheap ones I see occasionally, I would think they are almost always marked. After all if you are buying something that most people would think superfluous, wouldn't you want some guarantee of quality.

[wev]

Claret or Imperial punch was very popular in the 19th century, especially in the south. From 1862:
1 bottle of claret
1 bottle of soda water
4 T fine sugar or gum syrup
1/4 t grated nutmeg
4 oz maraschino
sliced rind of lemon
sliced rind of orange
1/2 lb crushed ice

mix in large pitcher, stir vigorously, pour unstrained into claret glasses

A pair of modern versions, both around 11" long
Porter Blanchard

Allen Adler

[Francais]

HI
Well that works for me, although I read somewhere that the spoons first appeared in 1880, but 1862 works for me.
Notice the bowl of the spoon is at least 2 inches long, blunt, and normal thickness, mine isn't even 1 inch, pointed, and quite thick due to the ridge. I presume the claret spoon was used to ladle stuff in, or out, or stir things up. Mine wouldn't stir well from either end, and it would probably be hard to get a big cherry in it..
With his permission I will quote Arbittier:
"Many thanks for the note. I really don't think the item is medical. The form of the scoop just doesn't look like a normal 19th century surgical item. The bowl is a bit too deep and the decorative element on the stem above the bowl would be unusual for a 19th century medical item. That being said, I don't know what it is for! I can keep a lookout and look through some of my old surgical catalogs to see if I see something like it. Usually it would also be stamped with the surgical instrument makers name. Hmmm. If I figure it out I'll certainly write you!"

As it turns out I am researching a very interesting piece of silver for him, when finished I'll see if he wants it posted.

[agphile]

Incidentally, I note that in the catalogue both the Military and the Naval kits include bullet forceps. I think this disposes of one of the theories: that scoop-, spoon- or ladle-like tools were used to remove such foreign bodies from wounds

[dognose]

mmm.... I would have to say that bullets often carried other debris with them, especially if they passed through something else first. The forceps would remove the bullet but would not be of much use removing smaller particles that the surgeon cannot see. It was those small particles that, if left in the wound, would cause infection and death at this period.

Trev.

[Francais]

I agree, Bennion doesn't use the word bullet, she calls it "foreign matter". I would think if you only used a bullet extractor of any form, there would be a good chance of infection.
I remember seeing a show on the shooting of Lincoln. Evidently one of the surgeons attending used his finger to remove a clot from Lincoln's skull. Presumably he was trying to remove foreign matter, but quickened the president's death by doing so. in a wound that close wadding could very probably enter the wound along with the bullet. I'd still like to know what the tool in the Haemostatic sets was for.

[oel]

Hi,
Nothing much to add but if my memory serves me correct, I believe I have read in a medical magazine; during the ages, the doctor/surgeons experimented to have their operational skills improved for the benefit of the patient. Those ‘pioneers’ designed their own medical instrumentation and had the specialized “tools” made by a skilled silversmith. Successful ‘tools’ were copied & improved by other doctor/surgeons, learning on the job so to speak.


Oel.

[dognose]

Some examples of gun-shot probes:



Source: A catalogue of surgical instruments and appliances manufactured and sold by Down Bros. - 1890

Trev.

[fiona]

Hello, We have one of these in our collection. It is a lithotomy scoop - used in the medical/surgical profession for removal of stones such as kidney, bladder or gallstones that cannot exit the body on their own. Your example is very similar to ours, probably also early to mid 19th century. Ours is of English manufacture, can't say how they might differ by country. I would imagine it was an extremely painful operation at that time (or earlier...). Not a common item - husband loves to bring it out as a stumper for guests.

cordially, Fiona

[fiona]

Hello again, Sorry - was looking at agphile's scoop - that is the lithotomy scoop. Will try to bring up the first picture, which is currently appearing broken.
cordially, Fiona

[Francais]

I guess I should have done this after Wev first suggested Claret spoon. You can see the bowl is quite thick in the center, as if it was meant to push something out of the way. Also the faceting goes right up to the bowl. It is obvious that it was meant to allow someone to turn either the bowl or the pointed end with one hand. Also the pointed end is quite sharp, to the point of being dangerous. You will also see that a dime doesn't even fit in the bowl. I don't know what this is but it is not a claret spoon, it is some kind of tool. Anyone who thinks it is a Claret spoon , please find a claret spoon with a bowl that is very small and shaped like this, with a sharp pointed handle, faceted, not marked, etc. etc. or any combination of these characteristics. I asked about 15 people today, none silver experts. A doctor thought is was a tool to pull something out, but not surgical. The funniest was a person who thought it was for cocaine, and the sharp end was for protection. Several people thought it was some kind of tool for getting something out of a bottle. One guessed olives, but the bowl is even too small for small European olives. I still think it is a surgical tool as it is closest to those shown. Another thought is it is some kind of apothecary tool. it looks a little bit like the tool a pharmacist uses to count pills, maybe the spoon is meant to remove powder from a bottle. I would also say maybe a chemist could use it, but that would not likely be made from silver.

[silverly]

Another guess if you please: a clay modeling tool.

[Francais]

I had the same thought, but couldn't figure out why it would be silver. It does look like you could sculpt something with it.

[Francais]

Thanks to someone on another site, I found a copy of this book, a bit too early for the subject at hand but none the less very interesting.
http://archive.org/details/generalsystemofs1743heis
Evidently in the mid 18th c. silver was often used to make surgical instruments. It mentions dozens of different types, prosthetics, probes, tubes, needles, etc.
On the side of an apothecary tool, a chemist friend pointed out the silver has long been known as a non-reactive metals, and until stainless steel only gold or platinum would have been better.
Maurice

[Francais]

I think I have found the surgical tool that fits the bill.
I think it is a Lithotomy knife and scoop. Originally I thought it was for removing bullets, but I couldn’t quite understand why it would be so sharp, on the probe end.
If I understand correctly, in those days, the surgeon pierced the wall of the bladder, then scooped out the stones, sometimes breaking them up first. The knives they used seemed to be only forward cutting. In this case it might be designed to perforate the wall and then stretch open the whole, after turning the tool the scoop would be used. The scoop was especially useful when the stones were small, or had been broken into small bits, also if the pieces were adherent or encysted in the wall. Which explains why the edge of the scoop is relatively sharp. I found a reference by John Ashhurst which said “every distinguished lithotomist has devised some special for of instrument, which bears his name”. He goes on to say that he uses a probe-pointed knife. Curiously enough I have a large collection of things from the Ashhurst estate. One example I found was paired with a gynecological scoop, which was somewhat similar. These tools were commonly made from silver.
This book shows one, which seems to have one bowl at the same angle, and the size is roughly the same.

http://books.google.com/books?id=kkAgfR ... 0scoop&f=f

Maurice

[JoyceHolt]

Hello,
We have one of these in our collection. It is a lithotomy scoop. its use in medical and surgical profession.


(admin edit - see Posting Requirements )

[Francais]

For anyone who still holds to the claret spoon hypothesis, the link was to a modern surgical instrument maker. I don't know whether or not they have an antique collection, but I could find nothing similar on their site.
I did search Goggle images one last time. I guess the Adler Claret spoon is forever linked to a lithotomy scoop. I did one last Goggle web search and found this:
http://books.google.com/books?id=U9hFFF ... 22&f=false

You will notice the bowls are essentially the same, as is the size etc. You will also notice the handles are all either faceted like mine, or at least ribbed so they can be turned with one hand.
The instrument was evidently quite well known from 1830-70 as I found several reference to using the tool to remove clots, from wounds etc.

While I don't mind seeing anyone else's comment, I really give up on anyone still arguing it is a claret spoon.
Maurice