Joseph Seymour Spoon Pattern ID Needed

If you know the maker, but not the pattern. - PHOTO REQUIRED
dognose
Site Admin
Posts: 50663
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 12:53 pm
Location: England

Joseph Seymour Spoon Pattern ID Needed

Postby dognose » Sun Dec 14, 2008 2:33 pm

Hi,

I could use some help with this one.

Joseph Seymour tablespoons, 8 1/4" in length, with a pattern I'm not sure of. I'm guessing they may be 'Bridal Wreath'.

Image

Can anyone confirm this? And if so what year were they introduced?

Thanks in advance.

Trev.
.

ellabee
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:17 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

Postby ellabee » Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:45 pm

Trev, I don't know the name of the pattern. I've seen it referred to elsewhere on the web as 'Wreath'.

Nor do I know for sure what year it was introduced. But there's reason to think it was between the early 1850s and the early 1860s, because of its strong resemblance to other patterns popular then.

NYC: 'Jenny Lind', produced by Albert Coles in the early 1850s, was very popular. A version of 'Jenny Lind' even more similar to the Seymour pattern was made by Gale & Willis, with the inward notch above a circular bulge; the Gale & Willis working partnership was from 1859-62.

Image

Philo Gilbert's variation on the popular 'Olive' pattern, patented in 1859, included a wreath motif.

Image

And Francis Gibney patented a pattern in 1862, called 'Gibney' when Whiting acquired and produced it, that had the same oval-over-circle shape.

Image

Syracuse, NY: Another pattern in the Jenny Lind family is 'Laurel', by Bunnell & Schreuder, who had a partnership 1853-57 in Syracuse, where Seymour worked. Notice how similar the style of the drop is to the Seymour pattern.

Image
Image

Philadelphia: Taylor & Lawrie produced pieces in the 'T&L pattern' (some marked with those exact words) for Bailey & Co. between 1846 and 1857 at the latest. The shape is strikingly similar, but I'm not sure how much exposure Seymour and other upstate New York producers would have had to the T&L pattern.
Image

On the other hand, Seymour worked well beyond the early 1860s, at least until 1870. The oval-over-circle shape of this pattern had a final resurgence when J.R.Wendt in New York City, selling through Ball, Black & Co., brought out (and patented) the very Gibney-like 'Union' in 1865. 'Union's popularity (in northern markets, at least) might have inspired Seymour to try to take advantage of the enthusiasm with his 'Wreath'. I'd even be inclined to interpret the wreath motif as victory laurels if not for the prominent central flower, which does make the design much more evocative of a bridal wreath.

But the real fashion for this shape was earlier. By the late 1860s, as the pace of new pattern introductions picked up, my guess is that the shape would have begun to look pretty played out. So, best guess: 1852-1865. Does that help?
.

dognose
Site Admin
Posts: 50663
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 12:53 pm
Location: England

Postby dognose » Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:40 am

Hi Ellabee,

Many thanks for your very detailed response and welcome to the Forum.

You asked "Does that help?", well it helps enormously. With your input, I am now very confident of the dateing of these spoons.

My possible attribution as to the name of this pattern, came from 'Replacements' web site, but there was no photo to confirm it, but the wreath, backed up by the suitable engraving on these pieces, I considered it the likely candidate, although I don't know if that was an 'official' name or just the name they gave it.

Thanks again for your help.

Regards Trev.
.

ellabee
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:17 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

Postby ellabee » Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:48 am

Glad to be able to help. I'm fascinated by the early decades of flatware patterns, after the Gale patent on roller dies expired in 1840.

I've seen references to Seymour selling to jewelers way beyond New York. Because he worked for a good long period in the same place, as a substantial producer selling to smaller, far-flung retailers, it seems likely that _somewhere_ there are documents listing his patterns.
.

ellabee
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:17 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

Postby ellabee » Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:10 pm

Don't know why I didn't think to look in the "bible", the Noel Turner flatware book (American Silver Flatware, 1837-1910). He lists the pattern as 'Wreath'.

That's not like finding documentation such as a Seymour catalog for retailers, but the Turner book sums up so much pattern information in one place that it's the first place a lot of dealers and collectors look. Since it came out in 1972, a lot more information has become available, and naturally errors and additions have been documented as researchers have focused on particular makers in more detail.

But when Turner and Replacements disagree, I go with Turner until I learn more elsewhere.
.

dognose
Site Admin
Posts: 50663
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 12:53 pm
Location: England

Postby dognose » Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:05 pm

Hi Ellabee,

Many thanks for the extra information, unless Seymour's paperwork comes to light, 'Wreath' it shall be.

Regards Trev.
.

silverly
moderator
Posts: 3081
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:54 pm
Location: Virginia Beach, Virginia

Postby silverly » Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:12 pm

There's an entry in about the middle of this page viewtopic.php?t=19900&highlight=joseph+seymour that might be useful here.

In the 1859 New York City Directory Joseph Seymour & Co with Joseph Seymour in Syracuse and Joseph Wall in New York City advertised that their manufactory at 35 Montgomery Street, Syracuse, New York produced the following patterns:

Cable
Bridal Wreath
Prairie Flower
Corn
Tulip
Cottage
Prince Albert
Plain Thread
Plain Tipped
Plain French
Oval Plain
Plain English

.

dognose
Site Admin
Posts: 50663
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 12:53 pm
Location: England

Postby dognose » Wed Apr 07, 2010 1:00 pm

Hi Pat,

Thanks for the reminder. I took note of it when you first posted the information. Did you really think I'd miss one of your posts?!

Regards Trev.
.

silverly
moderator
Posts: 3081
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:54 pm
Location: Virginia Beach, Virginia

Postby silverly » Wed Apr 07, 2010 1:13 pm

Thank very much you Trev! I felt sure you had noticed the posting, but the link just makes it easier for the next person. I personally find the flatware in your posting particularly attractive.
.


Return to “Flatware Pattern Identification”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests