Improving silver

[Hose_dk]

Dear I ask the question? Not realy but I will do it anyhow. I dont realy care what price a piece of silver represent. Ability to use is more importent to me. But the other day I observed this sugar bowl - that I have had for some time and my mind started ??
The sugar bowl is Danish from 1911 I cannot read the mark so I cannot identify the maker. Guardein is CFH and everything is as it should be.
But my mind if I remove the silver marks - I could have a piece from late 1775-1820. At least i could claim that I have.

How do we protect ourselves from being traped with such a bad guy? It would be easy to remove the 3 marks.
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[Granmaa]

Be extra wary about any item of silver that has no marks. If someone claims that the marks have "worn off" a piece of old silver, you should expect to see serious wear to the design and decoration.
Ask yourself, does the style and patina match the supposed age?

However, I think old marks illegally stamped on or applied to recent silver are greater dangers to the buyer.

Miles
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[kerangoumar]

All the arts are subject to the same questions about authenticity; whether one is looking at an ivory cross or a silver cann, one has to curb one's enthusiasm and ask the hard questions - about provenance, if such is available, repairs, etc., in order to weed out the also-rans from the objects worth consideration. And if one is buying from a dealer it helps to know that the dealer is a member of an organization such as PADAC (Professional Art Dealers' Association of Canada), BADA (British Antique Dealers' Association) etc. who will stand behind what he sells.

So much for the more technical concerns.

Artistically speaking, however, there is a more ephemeral, more difficult aspect to determining whether an object meets the criteria of its supposed age. Especially nowadays styles are recycled ever more rapidly and while at first glance art deco might be just art deco, a more in-depth, critical look will bring to light subtle differences in the design that are expressions of a changed attitude toward that design. Once we have experienced art deco, we can never again design or create art deco items from the original perspective.

When the book about the Bury St. Edmunds Cross (ivory, 12th C English, at the Cloisters Museum in NYC) was published in 1981 (King of the Confessors by Thomas Hoving, Simon & Schuster) there ensued a rip-roaring debate about the skill involved in carving such a cross. A number of my associates thought that - even if it were 'fake' - the cross was of such high technical mastery that that should elevate it into the highest levels of art, regardless.

But - with ivory as with silver, wood and every other sort of creative endeavour, including music - the original style is different from its recycled interpretations, and originality does matter.

The bowl in question might call to mind Neo-Classical style, but if one were to put it alongside an actual Neo-Classical bowl such as the DePeyster [punch] Bowl one would see a lightness of touch in the floral swags, for example, that is not there in the sugar bowl. As one example.

There is only one protection against this: to look and to handle as much as possible. Whatever your collection focuses on, but even related items from the same time period. You look and look until you think you can't look any more, and soon you begin to internalize the characteristics and signature aspects of the time period. So that, while there is always a possibility that one is duped, one can reduce its likelihood to a great degree.
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[Hose_dk]

Thanks for the reply.
It is true that older marks are proberly more likely to appear. We have seen a few Hanover pseudomarks lately.

In case of comparison - that is true, but we often lact material that we can look at. Especially when we are looking for a specific piece.
The bowl was bought at an internet auction. Seller claimed 1844 - when I had won the auction I requested a picture of marks before we send it cross border. Seller refuces but guaranteed its origin. I transferred the money and received. It took me only a split second to identify 1911. But then I had made payment and received the bowl. Afterwards seller made a refund. He told me that he did not know silver and relayed upon others. He did not question my proff and we came to an agreement. To send the item back would only cost money and it is not that expencive.
I would not mind buying from him again - he was fair. But I learned that whenever buying look carefull.
As for use it still serves its purpose. I think it is a nice piece but it will never be 1844 - so I live with that. But I still like my bowl eventhough it was to replace another bowl also 1911.

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[kerangoumar]

How's Denmark today?

Your experience highlights one problem with internet commerce - that one is not able to look at the object directly, but has to rely on pictures- and even then one doesn't know whether - or how much - they have been "improved". As you said, when you actually saw the bowl you recognized its actual age immediately. It is that degree of experience that is virtually useless when looking at a digital photo, backlighted by the computer screen, photoshopped, and who knows what else having been done to it.

I have sometimes thought about buying something via internet. But I always resist, in part because I would never trade the very real physical pleasure of handling the silver and seeing firsthand the workmanship and evidence of a long-gone human hand.
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[Hose_dk]

Denmark is fine the sun shines and I am goint to Turkey next week.

You are right and you are also very very wrong regarding the internet. My experience is with 3 different auktions sites. 2 danish and 1 swedish. The 2 danish represent 2 different cultures 1 is low prised things but prices are also very low. Once i bought 6 tespoons and 6 tespoons both in original boxes and one piece for cake. 6 spoons were 16 gram a piece, 6 were 22 gram a piece and the last was 100 gram totally 328 gram. Everything was early 1920ties and in mint condition. I payd 360 danish kr corresponding to 65 USD. including everything. A bargain like that is difficult to reject. So you should know the site start carefully and do not get exited. At this auktion house you cannot rely upon the auktion house - they are amateurs.
The other danish site is more proff. prices are higher because of higher quality auktions and that attract more buyers. This auktion house is more proff but depending upon branch - some of these are not silver specialists. So i have made some very good buys - and never realy regretted.
At the swedish auktion the seller makes description. the auktion only provides a marketplace. I have made 25 buys here. And have bought wonderful silver old and purely described. Only with the bowl I overbought - but seller made a refund of 25% so i cannot complain. 2 times have I bought plated silver - but both times seller had described as silver plated - i just thought that I new better (never do that). A few times I have bought 1800 silver where seller described as 1900 silver. Due to lack of knowledge. I am sorry to say that I knew - and payd 1900 prices for the items and thereby made a bargain. (sorry sellers). In the 25 buys I have never been cheated (not counting the bowl) the silver has always arrived as agreed.
So in my mind I can only recoment internet buying.

I started carefully low bitting and many a time I regret that I did not go higher. Prices are usually reasonable and you always have time for consideration.

Internet gives you an advantage. At the swedish auktionsite only a few danes participate. The swedish buyers prefer swedish silver. Many a time have I bought old danish silver for practically nothing. I recall 7 spoons. 1806 fully danish marks same smith, same year, same month - for the first 4 i payd 170 swedish kr a piece (corresponding to 25 USD) For the last 3 I payd 70 SEK a piece (corresponding to 10 USD). Similar swedish pieces go for around 300 to 400 SEK (44 to 58 USD) - this example gives you a hint in how to act at various auktions sites.

I do my best to learn how do buyers reach. How should I place my bit and when. Should I be aggressiv or should I be the oppersite.
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[Hose_dk]

You are right. I cannot hold the silver - and that is not good. You cannot feel it in your fingers. And you never know have pictures been modified?

I can do that in a shop.
But my experience (from internet) is that I have always had items that were OK. Price has always corresponded to percieved value, and a little less.
My time is not to go to auktions - so I enjoy buying at the internet.
Sellers are always happy to forward pictures as requested. When a seller do not respond - I stop bitting. I have had pictures from selles that made me jump of joy. Thinking oh poor you why did you not publish that picture? I then have the advantage of knowledge that only I have. (Sorry sellers)
So I would recomend that you reconsider.
When using your common sence - the internet provides good bargains. And a marketplace that you cannot reach by foot or in person. It also contains traps - but here in my world the internet is not developed into a place for cheating and making traps. Sellers are often private trading for the fun of it. I do not become rich from these bargains but i do certainly not become any poorer.
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[kerangoumar]

Well, I am glad that you are able to do well in those auctions. I never go to any auctions.

I always remember this particular auction, which was held in 1963 to sell the estate of the last of a "founding family". She and her sister had lived into their 90s in an enormous house and everyone was primed to expect great things.

There were many good things and the audience assumed that the all of it would be rare and valuable.

Did I mention that there had been no preview? (a common way to run auctions in provincial Canada at the time).

Near the end of the evening the auctioneer held up a "vase". From the floor one could just catch glimpses of ornate metalwork - could be bronze? perhaps ormolu, it had a sort of 'gold' look. In any event, a buzz ran through the room, followed by ferocious bidding. As often happens, two people fixated on it and bid one another up through the roof. . . for a pickle jar with glued-on macaroni, the same spray painted gold. Te auctioneer should have been thrown in jail. But - caveat emptor.

I know that is not the usual experience. And people who like auctions usually get something good out of them. As for me, I don't like being rushed. I like to be able to spend an hour or two with a piece, if I want to. I like being able to examine it minutely for "improvements". I like holding it and smelling it and eyeballing it so I can see the hammer marks, I like to look at the engraving and chasing and don't mind finding variations or even the odd mistake because they signify that a human being made this, not a machine. I can't get that from auctions either on the net or off. However, you have developed a feel for that sort of auction and you are enjoying yourself! You'll have to post your next find.

And bon voyage to Turkey.
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[Hose_dk]

Thank you i will - we have been visiting Turkey since 1989. Several visits approx every second year so we know what to expect.

Your experience in 63 is unusual. Auktions never tage place like that in Denmark. You alwayes have the possibility to see objects in advance and you can totch them if you like.
Internet auktions (in Denmark) is controlled by law. When I winn an auktion I can cansel my winning after the auktion has ended. No questions asked - I just have to say that I do not want the item. Result a full pay back of the total amount paid. I have done so in 2 cases when I saw the item. At 2 other occations I questioned the description of the item. In both cases the auktion house made a refund of the due that i had to pay the auktion house. In one case it was a a pair of 1700 candleholders (brass). The picture did not show that one of them was renewed. I still wanted the pair due to the fact that I already had one in my position. So I would have a pair anyhow. So i guess that auktions in Denmark are performed in a more fair way. Both seller and buyer should be pleased.

With the swedish auktions I deal directly with seller - and as I said many do it just for fun.

I also like to pick up things in second hand shops. There you can feel and smell the things. And do the thing we like to do - find undiscovered antiques. There are a few in my nabourhood - I have made it a habit of calling frequently - buying whenever I find something but most of the time i go without making any new buys.
however as I have been doing so for years - a lot of items have found their home with me.

Silver is cheap in Denmark - cobber and brass are impossible to sell. So many a good buy is possible.
I love turkey, and the middle east. Turkey cobber is not wanted in Denmark - we have had so many pieces imported from North Africa and the Middle East in the 60/70ties so many things that now meet the second hand marked. Many a good antique is now available at a low price.
And when I say antique - I dont meen the american definition - I talk european style - 200 to 300 years old.
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[kerangoumar]

Aha! now we know why eBay does not have an internet auction site in Denmark. More power to Denmark.

What goes on in North America is completely unregulated and the merchandise is always salted; especially in country auctions or auctions by smaller houses that don't have much of a reputation. A favorite hook is as follows: "the estate of a European noble (or wealthy surgeon or famous but anonymous movie star) . . . . with additions from other estates".

Not to forget the touts who bid up an item to make it more desirable. And the other crime that is constantly committed is of "buying in". You know what that is - but pretending to be a legitimate buyer so that they can "buy" the work in my book is fraud. Of course the heavy duty houses have been guilty of that as well.

Then there's a fellow running internet auctions out of the northeastern US who does not list any opening bids, only "estimated value". To me, if he has works that have been up for auction for three years he is over-estimating their value. As an experiment we sent in a number of really lowball bids. He did not sell them - not to us and not to anyone else. He got very hot under the collar and demanded to know how we had found his listings - which he had linked with his eBay auctions, bozo that he is.

So with all these stupidities I won't play the game. I'd rather spend the time with the object.

Enjoy the Turkish metalwork, I'm sure you will find some very fine things.
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[fatso]

May I try and contribute to your discussion?

Am a busy professional myself and internet auctions were the mainstay of my rapidly bulging collection. Mainly of english silver. By the time I have clogged every display cabinet in sight in my house I have come to understand some tricks of trade as described above. Well, win some lose some.

But it never ceases to amaze me the psychology of english people- the ability to buy an expensive tea set and then to keep it behind the glass for century to come with hardly ever taking it out to drink tea. Well, I do the very same but have some 27 sets to choose from so why bother? batchelor, family and grand set for major occasions will do. I have some real beauties, 70-80 yrs old in a brand new state. Hardly surprising that the hallmarks are crips and no scratch to the surface to be seen. They are not a fake, most definitely genuine silver but how to call it?
maybe a "New antiques frozen in time"?
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[kerangoumar]

well, the antique ones are antiques in mint condition. i would not call a 70-80-year-old item an antique, but then i am very rigid on this point. true antiques are those objects handmade until about 1835, when the Industrial Revolution began to throw out endless machine-made stuff.

however, i will allow that to most people, "antique" means 100 years old. that would take us to 1908, which is a point where most objects are being made mechanically. so that the silver - unless it is made by a craftsman - is also mostly mechanically produced. (even at that it is livelier than the same pattern made 50 years later.)

but i draw the line at 50 years being the dividing line! that is a seller-created idiocy motivated by greed. and virtually everything by that point is mechanically made, made to be as uniform as possible, plain bonkers.

so i would not describe your sets as antique just yet. though to me they would be "vintage silver in mint condition".
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