Overstruck Marks?

PHOTOS REQUIRED - marks + item
Aguest
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Overstruck Marks?

Postby Aguest » Sun Sep 24, 2017 6:49 pm

Just an average example of a coin silver fiddle-pattern fork:

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Until you try to read the hallmarks, then the mystery begins:

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The Retailer looks like "C. EVEREST" but I cannot find a record of this obscure retailer, or jeweler, or whatever....

Aguest
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Re: Overstruck Marks?

Postby Aguest » Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:26 pm

Ok, basically I read a lot of threads which talk about "Flourish" marks which are found on silver, usually in the gap from when the "Coin Silver" standard transitioned into the "Sterling Silver" standard, and these "Flourish" marks are of unknown significance but perhaps were associated with trade groups of silversmiths, sort of like the Guild system?

Most of the research points toward New York, and I did read about an "Everest" family from New York, so this is where I am headed in my research....

Aguest
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Re: Overstruck Marks?

Postby Aguest » Sun Sep 24, 2017 8:04 pm

Ok this is just a theory, but the French minted a new silver coin in 1849, and I believe the marks on this fork are to signify the fact that it was made from French silver coins, which bear a very similar "6-Pointed-Star" and also the laurel wreath looks like the "fern" symbols on my fork:

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Some researchers have theorized that these "flourish marks" or "countermarks" or "counterstamps" or whatever you want to call them, had something to do with the types of coins which were being melted down in the manufacturing of the flatware, so perhaps the symbols are somehow related to the French Silver Coins which were first minted in 1849. 1849 is a good starting date for this fork, I would date it 1850-1860, right before the "Sterling Standard" became common in America and Coin Silver began to fade from the population of silver objects....

silverly
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Re: Overstruck Marks?

Postby silverly » Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:36 am

Cornelius Everest is a possibility.

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Re: Overstruck Marks?

Postby Aguest » Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:13 am

In the article I read about "Flourish Marks," there was much discussion about Philadelphia and a possible alternative-marking system.... I believe there are letters under the "Flourish Marks," but it is difficult to tell, that's why I thought this was a case of an Overstruck Mark at first glance.... But it could be that Cornelius Everest belonged to a Guild, or maybe Cornelius Everest was using this obscure system of hallmarking....

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Traintime
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Re: Overstruck Marks?

Postby Traintime » Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:55 am

Q.-Is there a standardized name for this "Flourish Mark-Fern" design?
Q.-Has this fern mark turned up in Watch Makers markings? (If so, then a watchmaker + retailer might have the punch on hand to overstrike the true silversmith's mark.)
Q.-Is the Star/Mullet a mark placed earlier by the silversmith? (If so, it might be a "Coin" indicater, but of no specific monetary origin...i.e. US, Spanish, French, etc.)
Q.-Why might a "retailer" wish to hide the source of his supply (or her, for that matter)?

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Re: Overstruck Marks?

Postby dognose » Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:35 pm

Traintime wrote:Q.-Why might a "retailer" wish to hide the source of his supply (or her, for that matter)?


Years ago it was usual for the average person to build up their canteen, a piece, or a few pieces, at at time. The retailer would want the repeat business and would not want the final customer cutting out the middle-man by perhaps finding a cheaper supplier. The placing of the retailer's name on flatware and cutlery was a permanent advertisement and reminder as to where similar pieces could be obtained.

Trev.

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Re: Overstruck Marks?

Postby Traintime » Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:48 pm

That would definitely be the norm we would expect in most cases. And there are plenty of examples bearing only the retailer mark, sometimes coupled with a "guarantee" mark (for coin or sterling). Also, threads indicating what may have been central sources supplying various retailers (Chicago and east of there being one example). However, effectively cancelling out the maker mark with psuedo-symbols is less common. I would suggest that a post-colonial American maker mark is not only a guarantee of responsibility, but also a method of claim identification should items be stolen or not fully compensated for by a sales source. Hopefully, no re-seller of illegitimately acquired items would be dumb enough to place their own name-mark on such, so we can rule that out. However, a group of wares might be obtained (new as found) as a result of liquidation during a bankruptcy, either from a sale or from the supplier who have recovered the items. In this case, striking the name might make some sense for either the provider (discounting?) or the buyer (removing any further potential claims after he has paid in full). Wouldn't want anyone to know this stuff was in another store's stock would we? And we are talking America, land of the quick-buck method of getting wealthier by whatever means are necessary...aka free enterprise.

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Re: Overstruck Marks?

Postby Traintime » Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:32 pm

Another version of fern or bush mark next to retailer D.B. Warren of Pawtucket Rhode Island on unshown item: https://www.sterlingflatwarefashions.com/Ret/RetW1.html

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Re: Overstruck Marks?

Postby Aguest » Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:09 pm

Good comparison bush or fern. : Check out the French Colonial? Thread in the French forum and see if you think that is a bush or fern on those pieces. :::

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Re: Overstruck Marks?

Postby Traintime » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:43 am

As you wish-done. BTW..you mentioned some research into flourish marks. Were there a variety of forms found? Do you know of other "fern" photos we can link to for samples? And are the marks always appearing along with a retailer mark, or are there stand alone ones?


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