European goldwatch with unidentified hallmark. Help wanted!

[Christopher E]

I have got a european wristwatch that belonged to one of my close relatives. Its a rectangular and very nicely crafted watch - but with no name on the dial - it was bought first hand by him,maybe in the 1920-30's - probably in Austria, Switzerland or Germany. Havent opened it so I don't know the maker of the mechanism yet. Have searched intensely but cant seem to find any references to a mark similar to the one stamped on the back of the watch. The small stamp on the right is probably metal stamp - german squirrel signifying the 14k quality. The "c" on the left leaves me just as puzzled. Anyone have any insight on this?

Thanks in advance // Chris

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[oel]

Hi welcome to the forum,

German crown for gold 1884 to date, the National Gold Mark, a crown in a circle, is self-applied by the manufacturer or importer to designate gold items with a minimum of 0.585 fine ( 14K) but also permitted for use was a low gold standard marked 0.333, or occasionally stamped 8 kt. The number “56” above the 14K mark, I believe, is the case makers’ symbol or identification number.
The Swiss squirrel, not clearly shown at your image, could be a domestic Swiss gold mark and looking at the frame-shape used 1880-1934. Included in the squirrel hallmark was a small letter or symbol that identified the regional assay office.
I believe the watch to be made in Swiss and exported to Germany, hence the German crown.
The C, but I am only guessing, could be for the German importer/retailer?


Oel

[dognose]

The '56' could be fineness indicator in zolotniki. I've noted at least two Swiss casemakers using this style of marking, presumably to cover all possibilities for the ultimate destination of the watchcase.



Trev.

[oel]

You are right Trev, because the case maker’s symbol or identification number you normally find in a hammer shaped shield next to the purity mark.

Perhaps in 'our' case, the little c could be a case- maker’s mark?


Oel.

[Christopher E]

Thanks for chipping in. Knowledge is a great thing!!!
On further thought maybe the "c" is for La Chaux-au-Fond? - since all the upper markings are dedicated to gold quality?

I've managed a few better pictures - se below. What looks like a bird sitting on a "u" could possibly be a makers mark?
The watch is quite contradictory - being of decent metal quality, quite nicely crafted case - and then the second dial is offset to the inner rectangle - very assymetric and surprising. Still it's dear to me and works great so...? :-)

[oel]

Hi,

You have a nice and original watch, not tampered with and with provenance.
Yes, we would expect the regional assay office identification letter to be in the squirrel mark but watch cases do not always follow general assay office rules, and the C could stand for the assay office of La Chaux-de-Fonds.

Best,

Oel.

[oel]

Hi,

I contacted a befriended expert on watches and asked him if he could pinpoint the maker, his reply; to be able to help I need photos from the inside back and the movement with all markings and numbers. We advise; if you decide to go ahead, to go to a watchmaker and ask him to open the case, to enabling you to take the necessary photos of the markings and numbers.


Oel.

[Christopher E]

Oel - you're most helpful - thank you so much!

I opened the case earlier today and - wow!? I found at least 9 different numbers scribed inside the case - and a Poincon De Maitre no 2 - The hammer with a handle - with number 15 ( or maybe 10? - its very small I couldnt make it out and didnt have a good magnifier). The movement does not have any markings that I could make out - maybe they are hidden by something - the top screws were sealed with something ruby-colored and I wont mess with them in any way of course. I'll take some pictures tomorrow. (Lucky Im a photographer by trade!)

The mystery unfolds - does anyone know were to find lists or tables of the Poincon de Maitre markings - this would help a great deal?

Thanks! // Chris

[Christopher E]

So - managed to take some more pictures. The movement has no numbers other than what appears to be a handscribed: "2" just below the adjuster.

The case compensates for that with all kinds of handscribed codes - some which are hard to make out (I hope i interpreted them all correct) - if someone is curious I'd be happy to supply a hi-res image. The Poincon de Maitre no2 - which says 15 - places the case in Geneva as I understand - but I also learned that there aren't complete registers for the Hammer and Handle-markings? Maybe other items though - with provenance? Other than that someone with thorough knowledge of horology may have to step in to unravel this...

[oel]

Thanks for the clear pictures; this is a very simple (probably German) movement; unfortunately we can not identify it.
The ‘engraved’ scratch numbers and letters are repair numbers & codes put on by watchmakers. Most watchmakers kept a logbook
For more info see:
http://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?2718 ... -case-mean

Oel.

[dognose]

Hi Chris,

Having just blown up your hammer with handle image, we may have an answer.



The number contained within the device may not be '15', but a badly struck '115'. If so, then all be revealed, the casemaker will be Favre & Perret.

See: Swiss Watch Case Marking Information

Trev.

[AG2012]

This art deco watch was cleaned (and possibly repaired) several times;

handscribed codes

were added by watchmakers.

[Christopher E]

Dognose, thanks for hanging in there! :) and... I wish - it would have been 115 - but Im afraid its just a plain "15" judging from the hi-res images. (even though I see the shadow that could have suggested an additional 1) I've sifted through the internet trying to find any object or reference to PdM no 2-15 - but no luck so far... Im going to talk to a local watchshop with technicians about what the codes mean and refer to. At least I'll learn something even if I dont get any closer to finding the casemaker.

Thanks!

[AG2012]

talk to a local watchshop with technicians about what the codes mean and refer to

These are very arbitrary but good luck.