can you identify this mark please

[momo339]

Can anyone identify this mark, I think its Joseph Allen around 1821 but not sure, I cant find a match for the year or Birmingham assay mark.

[dognose]

Hi,

Welcome to the Forum.

To my knowledge that watchcase maker remains unidentified. Phil on the silvermakersmarks site has the same punch mark complete with the chipped bottom right hand corner, see: http://www.silvermakersmarks.co.uk/Make ... JA-JB.html

The assay date will be 1897.

Trev.

[momo339]

Thank you Trev. I did see that on Phil's site but I was thrown by the date letter shield. I was looking for what I cheerfully called a shield with a rounded bottom and two top clipped corners rather than what I found of a square with clipped corners !.

It has been described as a James Allen piece by the seller so I guess it isn't.
Garry

[dognose]

Hi Garry,

All permutations of cartouche shape are not included in any publication to my knowledge, there are variations depending on size, difficult marking space, different products/different metals, etc.

Here's another example of watchcase marking with similar cartouches to your piece:


Numa Jacques - Birmingham - 1884

Trev.

[momo339]

Its interesting I have to say, could that JA makers mark be an old one that James Allen had to replace ?. Would a silversmith do that if he found his stamp was leaving errors on pieces or not clearly defined.

[dognose]

He would indeed. Any replacement punches should have been registered with the relevant assay office.

Trev.

[momo339]

I am convinced that is the case, whether it is merely what I want to convince myself of or not I do not know, but I am almost certain it is so from the shape of the stamp and the lettering, the placement of the dot and the general outline of the lettering as well.

[dognose]

Just to put things in perspective, during the period 1890-1920, there were over 4,500 makers registered with the Birmingham Assay Office. Any set of marks beginning with the letter 'J' being by far the most commonest.

Trev.