www.925-1000.com

I found this item in the low country of SC near Charleston. It was in an area that has produced British and American items from the Colonial period through the late 1800's. It seems that someone has taken the top of a spoon or fork and began making a ring or something utilitarian.

I have looked for information about the maker and cannot locate anything. I am not a silver person so I don't know what the other marks mean. If anyone can help with the maker and also meanings for the other marks, I would greatly appreciate it.

The drawing of the cross is of the mark that is on the far right of the 4 marks. I just can't get a good photo of it.

Thanks!!

Daryl

I guess I needed a better picture of the item. It's just a piece of a fork or a spoon and I thought I had enough. Evidently not. Here is the whole thing.

Thanks,

Daryl

They are the marks of John Yates of Birmingham, England, a prolific producer of silver plate in the last quarter of the 19th century. He used several marks, including those shown in the British silver plate listings on this site; these are his pseudo hallmarks.

Hi Doc,

Thank you for the information. I had found a site that said that John Yates used the "IY" maker's mark but it was a little "iffy" as to the certainty. They just said it could be attributed to him.

Since I am not into silver/silver plate hallmarks, can you give me a little more information/help?

What do you mean by "Pseudo Hallmarks." Did he use a Maker's Mark that was not his initials for a reason? And why are the hallmarks "Pseudo?" Do they not really stand for anything? Are they just ones he used all the time no matter when it was made or other things? I'm totally lost here.

Is there a site or can you tell me what the hallmarks mean. I have read some information on what certain ones mean but most of this has been on silver hallmarks that stand for the date, location, purity, etc. I would really like to learn more about hallmarks. I am on several forums on metal detecting and there are posts every now and then about hallmarks and I would like to help if I could.

I appreciate anything you can tell me.

Daryl

Hi Daryl,

Welcome to the Forum.

For an explanation of pseudo marks go to the Glossary.
http://www.925-1000.com/silverglossary4.html

Marks on silver plated items rarely mean anything but are usually peculiar to a particular maker and often identifiable.

The use of an 'I' instead of a 'J' was normal at this period. There was a post on this subject some time ago, if you read through the old posts, I suspect you will learn much.

Regards Trev.

Hi Trev,

Thanks. That helps. As a real novice, I find the information relating to silver versus silver plate sort of confusing and jumbled together. Even the information on Pseudo marks seems to be related to silver and not silver plate from England.

I think I know what pseudo marks are now and that they were probably put there to make the flatware look more like silver or higher grade flatware. Since they are not sanctioned, that is the only reason I can think of going to the trouble to put them there.

I appreciate the information and now reading some of the other posts will make more sense.

The one problem I am having with the maker's mark on this piece is that the date doesn't fit with other things found on the site. The site was occupied from colonial times until the civil war - 1861 to 1865. Nothing found there has dated later than that. This spoon/fork ring object was found with horse tack, buckles and pieces of flintlock rifles all dating from the late 1700's.

We never know how things wind up where they do but this one is just an odd find. It is the only object out of about 50 that dates past the civil war.

Oh well, dating things and trying to make them fit the area is always tough if not impossible.

Thanks again for the welcome and the help.

Daryl

Hi Trev,

Could you please give me a link to a page that shows some of the pseudo marks used on this piece. I've looked for quite a while and I keep sent to sterling lists.

If it is easy to do, I would really appreciate it.

Thanks,

Daryl

Hi Daryl,

The attribution of maker's marks on silver plated items is often a matter of supposition. Information linking the maker to the mark was most often found from old catalogues, advertisments, sometimes from examples held by companies still in business and sometimes from pattern books were the pattern was peculiar to one company, but sometimes identification is made on a 'most likely' basis.
With little regulation in that industry, especially in the mid-nineteenth century, firms blatantly mimicked the official hallmarking system, this was not an attempt to dupe the buyer, but purely a sales ploy, after all they were producing an imitiation of solid silver items and the mark was the final touch. This is of course exactly what the buyer wanted also, goods at a cheaper price, but when laid upon the dining table, a vast majority of the guests would not know the difference.

Returning to the 'most likely' indentification process. I do not know if the attribution of John Yates is backed up by something more concrete, it may well be, but considering your comments on the dating of other pieces found at that site, there are likely to be three scenarios, that the item was lost at a later date, or the dating of the working period of John Yates is suspect, or that there may possibily be a mis-attribution to John Yates. If the latter were to be the case, I would throw the name of John Yapp into the hat. The Birmingham company of John Yapp & Co. can be traced back to the days of Thomas Willmore in the 1770s, but as John Yapp & Co. to the 1840s, a date more fitting with other objects from this site, but as mentioned earlier, there may well be more solid information linking this mark to Yates than I am aware of.

As for links to information on other silver plate marks have you checked out? http://www.925-1000.com/silverplate__menu.html

Regards Trev.

Hello everyone.

I don't know who used that set of marks.
Here are some of John Yates silverplate marks.



Pat.

Thanks Trev for all the information. Yes, all those scenarios are possible. Especially the one about this item being lost at a later date. I have learned that lesson the hard way. I guess the whole issue of Pseudo marks and this being plate and not sterling and most of the marks being for sterling just has me all confused. I do appreciate everyone's effort at helping me understand the whole scenario. I did visit the page you gave me. For me, it didn't help much. I really couldn't figure find ones that matched.

Thanks 2209Patrick. This adds more "interest" to the matter since none of these marks appear on the piece I have.

I do appreciate all the help. Maybe the issues with Pseudo marks is doing exactly what they were supposed to do - CONFUSE. LOL

Daryl