800M 875M

[amena]

The issue of the 875M and 800M hallmarks has already been debated some time ago in a post whose photos have disappeared
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=24296&p=58551&hilit=875M#p58551
The question remained unsolved: Germany, Belgium or whatever ?
I found a glass jug with a silver lid that bears both hallmarks and I ask the question again. Is it German silver?
Perhaps the photo of the entire object can help define a provenance and a date.





Thanks for attention.
Amena

[AG2012]

Hi,
I opt for Germany. This historismus carafe has typical middle European engraved décor with partial matte finish and emerged in Plauen, Saxony.
Regards

[oel]

German or Belgian ? also see:
http://www.ascasonline.org/ARTICOLONOVE69.html

Peter.

[amena]

Apparently there has been no news about it since 2011.
Thanks anyway.
Amena

[Dendriet]

Hi,


I choose Russia and Germany, and go with and partly with AG2012.

(875 M in Belgium or Germany ??)

The monogram seems more Russian to me

[silverfan]

The M means Millesimes (Tausendstel). It was attributed to the German silversmith Memmert (see German Maker's Marks) what is wrong. On my suggestion the comment was completed. I saw the M on Belgian and German items even on Bruckmann pieces but not on Russian silver.
Regards silverfan

[Aguest]

I always thought 800M was Belgian and was used during the period of time when silver hallmarking was not compulsory. ::::

[amena]

I thank everyone for their contribution.
However, the question seems without a certain solution.
I thought I'd overlook the hallmarks, just looking at the style.
Searching the internet I seem to have found more German than Belgian mugs similar to this one.
I would opt for Germany.
Best regards
Amena

[Qrt.S]

@amena
Mind my saying but why do you not believe what is written in the link you posted. It is an unregistered Belgian fineness mark used 1869-1942. There are several Belgian unregistered "standards" e.g. 800, 800M, 800A (A in a square frame), 900, 950M 800/1000, 800MIL, 800/MIL...and a few more. The reason for these unregistered marks was hard competition and concurrence with imported good from foreign countries, especially Germany and France in the middle of 19th century. Belgian silversmiths asked for greater freedom of trade as to the silver content and also to get rid of the obligation of having a registered maker's mark. As a consequence you can find items, which only carry the silver fineness mark and no maker's mark at all. Your tankard is from Belgium.
Elementary dear amena! :-))))

[amena]

Maybe you are right or maybe not.
From the contributions that have been collected I have not been able to form a certain and incontrovertible opinion.
My gut feeling leans more towards a German than a Belgian tankard.
Only gut feeling
Regards
Amena

[Qrt.S]

@amena
Well nothing wrong with "gut feelings", but.... Unfortunately they are only "feelings". I presented you facts. Belgium has de facto used a fineness of 800A not Germany. If there was a town mark I could have bet on Germany but there isn't therefore i bet on Belgium the "A" talks for it. Anyway, neither Germany nor Belgium are exactly my cup of tea....

[silverfan]

I do not see an A.
The M-discussion is as old as a beard. For years one could read in our forum under German Makers' Marks after 1886 that the M stands for the Berlin silversmith Gustav Memmert. After 3 runs I succeeded sometime ago in convincing the admins to complete the commentary.
From 800M alone you cannot judge if it is Belgian or German because it is found on silver of both countries.
Regards silverfan

[AG2012]

The truth may be (and often it is) somewhere in between.
There is logic in the fact that letter M after 800 is short for French millesimes, pointing to Belgium.
On the other hand, there are silver items marked 800 M with German (Berlin ?) retailer`s marks (e.g. Friedlaender and P. Mertz), pointing to Memmert.
Serious auction houses often describe those items as ``probably Memmert``.

[Qrt.S]

Sorry, sorry I meant M of course, my mistake. The M is typical for Belgium. Please note that the M is not a separate mark bot within the same frame with 800

[Qrt.S]

See here. In case of a separate M-mark, I would agree on Germany, but as you see, within the same frame! Haven't seen a maker's mark being a part of a fineness mark.

[Qrt.S]

I would appreciate if somebody could show an 800 mark followed with a capital M in the same frame without a town mark and also verify the maker. Not separate 800 and M marks and no other marks on the object. Then we could compare the marks and see what that leads to.
A good example would be a "probably Memmet". See below:

there are silver items marked 800 M with German (Berlin ?) retailer`s marks (e.g. Friedlaender and P. Mertz), pointing to Memmert.
Serious auction houses often describe those items as ``probably Memmert``.

Moreover, "serious auction houses...." !? Are you serious now AG2012?

[silverfan]

Dear Qrt.S,
there are many offers with 800M attributed to Memmert in the German eBay. If with or without frame, in my opinion it does not matter. You find 800M with and without frame on Belgian pieces too (see Oel's input). If M actually means Millesimes (Tausendstel) it is international.
I attach photos of my gingko bowl and its marking. Bruckmann-No. 7624 exactly for this model, 900M, Kopenhagen (import) mark 1908, assay mark. So even a big German silver producer used the M mark on export pieces.
Regards silverfan

[Qrt.S]

@silverfan

Yes, I know that and I stated in my input that it is a typical mark used in Belgium for reasons I mentioned earlier. There is no maker's mark on this object. However, on silverfan's picture 2.20 pm there is a maker's mark in addition to the 900M mark. Please reread my first input on 12.46pm.
I do not base my statements on "feelings", "guts" or "believes", even less on "serous auction houses attributions like "probably" Memmet"...whatsoever, but on facts! That is that the 800M is an unregistered Belgian fineness mark

My point in this particular case is that the M is in the same frame as the fineness value 800 being a part of the same punch and no maker's mark!! It is clearly seen on my magnification. Moreover, I have never heard, read or seen that a maker's mark would be included in the the punch for a fineness mark. Has anybody? Therefore I find it more or less obvious that the M is an abbreviation for Millésimes (800/1000) and not for a maker's name.
But OK, I could be wrong, prove it! I have presented enough evidence for Belgium.

Both Aquest and AG2012 share my opinion, partly Dendriet too. So what's the problem?

@ Dendriet
Forget Russia. It has nothing to do with where this tankard is made.

.

[silverfan]

@Qrt.S
nobody here in the forum discussion pretends M or M in frame to be a maker`s mark (there is only the wrong attribution in "German Maker's Marks after 1886"). You have the same opinion as me: M means Millesimes. But why should it be only a Belgian fineness mark!?
My photo of the marking on the ginkgo bowl made by Bruckmann proves the contrary.
Regards silverfan
P.S.: Where do I find the photo you mention in your last post "2.20 p.m".

[Qrt.S]

@silverfan
Simply because there is no maker's mark and there is a clear reason for it!!
The photo I referred to is in your own input 2.20pm. It differs from amena's picture because your object has a fineness mark 900M and a maker's mark. Amena's doesn't have it. That is the main difference. Maybe we have a language problem here. To my understanding some here refers to that the M would be Memmet's maker's mark. "...attributed to Memmet...". Please reread my first input where I explain the origin of 800M. The whole point is the missing maker's mark on amena's tankard. I still stick to my opinion i.e. made in Belgium until proven otherwise.