Who is AH with Ljubavin?

[Qrt.S]

Does anybody happen to know who is AH (Latin or Cyrillic) in connection with Ljubavin's mark in St Petersburg? Ljubavin marked АЛ, AL. or A.L. but this AH???




I'm sorry but I'm not allowed to show the object.

[Goldstein]

Hi -

AH in an oval = Hertuainen, Adam - but:
always in combination with great/better names like Morozov, Ljubavin, Ovtschinnikov etc. Mostly on spoons but also on smaler objects.
Two kinds of fake marks are known: a) total fakes like the shown mark or b) authentic marks with the fake addition of AH.
The Internet is full of them.

Regards
Goldstein

[Qrt.S]

@Goldstein
Please remember that I have told you and Ubaranda long ago that the mark AH is Adam Herttuainen because a friend of mine happens to know Adam Herttuainen's relatives. Adam H. was an apprentice with Stefan Väkevä and married with S. Wäkevä's daughter. Anyway, Herttuainen worked exclusevly for Morozon and not Ljubavin and therefore I ask who is AH in connection with Ljubavin. And of course the whole world is full of fakes nothing new with that...

[Goldstein]

Hi -

Usually, you do not provide sources for your allegations. But if you do it for once, it always start with the sentence: I have a friend whose .... ".

Here are some self-explanatory photos that prove what I said:








Regards
Goldstein

[Qrt.S]

@Goldstein

What poofs are those? Where is it written that all your shown AH marks would be Adam Herttuainen except for in connection with Morozovs mark and that we already know, so? You have only drawn a hasty conclusion as usual based on my saying that AH with Morozov is A. Herrtuainen and that is all. The only thing your pictures show is that there was a master marking AH in different frames and different companies. Note that we don't even know are the letters Latin AH or Cyrillic AN! This is the reason for my question in the first place, i. e. Who is AH?

[Goldstein]

Hi -

A. Herrtuainen

Adam Herttuainen

Maybe your friend knows how his real name is and how Morozov is spelled?

Herttuainen worked exclusevly for Morozon

"exclusevly" = only for....no own production? How comes that you find his initials on many other "famous" firm´s objects? Why nobody of the experts know him - only you and your friend? Why surfaced his initials together with Morozov and Ljubavin since the last 3 or 4 years?
Why are on authentic Morozov objects the contributor´s mark " BK "and not " AH "? (BK = Kangin, Wasilij)







Why do you use a fake mark?


Authentic mark:


I think that there is a great need for clarification to end this progressive nonsense. It can not be that you got used to fakes over the years and start accepting them as authentic.
Therefore, facts and primary sources are the only way! Assumptions lead to nothing and further increase insecurity.

Regards
Goldstein

source: private collection

[Qrt.S]

@Goldstein,

From your writings you are trying to give the audience the impression that you are the only one here who know it all and being always the only and most reliable source with all knowledge available regarding Russian silver. Amin edit
Instead use your skills here and encourage people to ask more questions. That would be a good target!

@Oel
As the co-admin. you have the right to delete my text above. I admit, it is in way out of topic. Admin edit

[Goldstein]

Hi -

The topic here is the mysterious AH and not my person. Admin edit

Answer the questions as best you can. Do not turn out! Take up the discussion! Since you pretend to be able to find out more about AH through your friend, it is possible to shed some light on the subject. For example, a biography / CV / professional development AH's, all that would be beneficial - that should be possible. Then you might be able to draw certain conclusions and some questions answer by themselves - mistakes in thinking are resolved. Admin edit

Regards
Goldstein

[Qrt.S]

@Goldstein
I made a question: Who is AH? I have answered it as well the best I could. One more time: AH is Adam Herttuainen but only in connection with Morozov. This information is based on Adam Herttuainen's grandchild who is a friend to a friend of mine. I believe that a relative usually knows quite a lot of his ancestors, especially famous ones. At least I do it regarding mine. There might be some written information in the Herttuainen family. I don't know and I see no reason doubt what I have been told. Unfortunately you don't believe in anybody else than yourself. Sometimes you just have to accept an oral statement. Documentation is not always accessible.

Summa summarum and back to square 1. Who is AH, in Cyrillic or Latin, except for the told Morozov connection? To state without blinking that AH is Herttuainen in other connections is distorting facts because it cannot be verified. It could be Herttuainen but nothing points at that direction for the moment.

FYI!
I do not pretend anything! I know what I know and are willing to share this information, but sometimes it seems to be a long haul and a total waste of time like in this case.

[Goldstein]

Hi -

If the forum has at least a minimum scientific claim, then all informations given must be substantiated or clearly marked as speculation. Under this premise the whole world works.
I regret that you do not want to follow this custom. But do not be surprised if sometimes I can not take you seriously anymore.
Thus, this case remains unresolved although a solution would have been obvious.

Regards
Goldstein

[Qrt.S]

@Goldstein

This is not a scientific forum but a discussion such. Nobody forces anybody to take anything "seriously" as you state. You don't even have to read the inputs made by me or anyone, even less keep them as the absolute truth. And please note that next time you show a pile of pictures of marks etc. and announce as your source your "private collection", keep in mind that your collection (it is a nice one) is, however, not a reliable and scientifically approved source of authentic and/or genuine Russian silver marks. It is just a collection of different Russian articles. In addition, Postnikova is not either a 100% proof source. I have registered close to 200 incorrect/insufficient entries in it. As a simple example let us take Minsk on p. 200. Very few marks are from Minsk. The vast majority are from Warsaw and there is more.... So referring to written sources is can easily lead to wrong conclusions. As we all know very well, there are no 100% reliable sources written or oral.
What I'm trying to say is that sometimes you just have to trust and believe in what people state in their entries. There are often background reason for their statements. If you don't accept that, there is no reason whatsoever to read the inputs or visit the site!

[Goldstein]

Hi -

Now I have totally lost the context / overview. What is it about? What do you want to say? Worked Ljubawin in Warsaw? Has Postnikova a "Private Collection"? Who is Minsk?
I hope you are fine!

Regards
Goldstein

[Qrt.S]

Yes of course you have. Reread what I wrote earlier. You are referring to your collection more than often. Anyway, I'm saying that written sources are not always 100% reliable. I referred to Postnikova as only an example to which is often referred being the "bible". There are quite a lot of insufficient/incorrect information in it. One example is MInsk on p.200. Almost all information there is wrong. Written sources are not always trustworthy and neither are oral stories. But if no written information exists, oral is better than nothing especially when they come from relatives.

[Goldstein]

Hi -

After the request for reliable sources was for the umpteenth time denied (who does not have can not provide) and the relevant literature has been judged devastating, I try a different approach: it is striking that objects (I know only spoons) of the largely unknown manufacturer AH in an oval emerges lately in many versions. Without dots, with one dot and with two dots. How comes? Please go back in the thread - I posted different AH marks. After you pretend to have direct access to the descendants of the suspected manufacturer, it is quite easy to clarify which mark is authentic or if all 3 are valid. Please no further oral hear/say - I am only interested in facts or authentic documents from the family or elsewhere.
It is noticeable that the brands "Morozov" and "Ljubavin" are always faked. Why?
Another example of another primitive fake:




Regards
Goldstein