Need help withFrench gold, gold juxtaposed, or silver mark?

[excalibur1661]

Dear board members,

I would appreciate your input with the marks under this porringer which was retailed by Tiffany of Paris. To me the mark resembles the French gold juxtaposed with base metals, however, it appears that this particular mark was adhered to after 1984 according to some French sites.

I would be most grateful for your opinion on the makers mark which looks like a J alongside a crescent that may be a 'C.

Regards,

Fred

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/21/j5w1.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/f/5/2t8f.jpg/

[Francais]

I am afraid the guarantee mark is too small to read from your photo, but if you go to this page
http://www.925-1000.com/Ffrench_marks.html

Does it look like the boars head mark shown under small guarantee?
As for the maker's mark there are a number of marks that end in J and have a horse shoe or fer a cheval as a symbol. None of the ones I could find had blunt ends.
Maurice

[excalibur1661]

I am afraid the guarantee mark is too small to read from your photo, but if you go to this page
http://www.925-1000.com/Ffrench_marks.html

Does it look like the boars head mark shown under small guarantee?
As for the maker's mark there are a number of marks that end in J and have a horse shoe or fer a cheval as a symbol. None of the ones I could find had blunt ends.
Maurice

Thank you Maurice,

I did compare the shape of the mark with the 'boar's head. It does not look like that.

There is an 'eagle' inside the shield and to me the outline of the punch looks like the one for 'gold juxtaposed with base metal'. However, what I am not sure about is whether this mark was used as early as 1920 since there is an inscription on the base of the porringer for 'Paris, 1920'.

Thank you.

Fred

[Francais]

I don't want to be difficult, but any chance you could take a close up of the small mark. It looks like the boar mark upside down.
I know people who confuse the eagle head and boar mark, when found on gilt items. I couldn't see why Tiffany would be selling something that was not silver. Quite honestly I don't know what gold juxtaposed with base metal means.
Maurice

[excalibur1661]

I don't want to be difficult, but any chance you could take a close up of the small mark. It looks like the boar mark upside down.
I know people who confuse the eagle head and boar mark, when found on gilt items. I couldn't see why Tiffany would be selling something that was not silver. Quite honestly I don't know what gold juxtaposed with base metal means.
Maurice

Thank you for your reply.

I will put a link of the mark upside down. I, originally, thought it may be the boars head struck upside down but when I checked, it did not correspond. The french sites that I checked had a mark that was similar to this item and they described it as:

(admin edit - see Posting Requirements )

France composés (juxtaposés) à 50% ou plus d’or à 750 millièmes - 18 carats : Tête d'Aigle

And here is the link to the mark upside down:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/845/vuft.jpg/

I appreciate your help.

Best regards,

Fred

[Francais]

At least now I know what you are talking about. From the shape of the cartouche I can tell you that the mark is the boar's head mark.
It is very small and hard to read so you have to look at the shape of the cartouche. That eagle mark has a very pointed part, and my understanding is it that it was added to other marks. I presume there is no other mark but around the rim, look on the inside for a counter mark, as it is sometimes easier to find.
Gilding was added to 800 silver, as it was a lower grade and tended to discolor, also gilding took better on 800 silver than it did on sterling.
My guess is that unless someone finds a Paris maker who supplied Tiffany, that it could be a Strasbourg maker, that since the 17th century not only worked in lower grade silver, but was known for its gilding (although at the time it was fire gilding, mercury gilding, not electroplating.
Maurice

[Francais]

By the way, what is the size? It looks like a wine taster to me.
Maurice

[excalibur1661]

By the way, what is the size? It looks like a wine taster to me.
Maurice

It is about 5.5" in diameter and weighs around 10.5 Ounces.

Thank you.

[excalibur1661]

At least now I know what you are talking about. From the shape of the cartouche I can tell you that the mark is the boar's head mark.
It is very small and hard to read so you have to look at the shape of the cartouche. That eagle mark has a very pointed part, and my understanding is it that it was added to other marks. I presume there is no other mark but around the rim, look on the inside for a counter mark, as it is sometimes easier to find.
Gilding was added to 800 silver, as it was a lower grade and tended to discolor, also gilding took better on 800 silver than it did on sterling.
My guess is that unless someone finds a Paris maker who supplied Tiffany, that it could be a Strasbourg maker, that since the 17th century not only worked in lower grade silver, but was known for its gilding (although at the time it was fire gilding, mercury gilding, not electroplating.
Maurice

Thank you for your expert opinion.

The makers mark also appears on the body, close to the rim, near the handle. I will have my son look for a counter mark inside tomorrow.

Best regards.

Fred

[Francais]

Is the second maker's mark struck any better? I doubt it will help, but it might.
If the piece has a Minerva mark it will be around the rim, and on the inside will be a insect mark.
Maurice
Oh and don't forget the size, if you see that swirl pattern in the inside bottom, that is usually found on wine tasters.

[excalibur1661]

Is the second maker's mark struck any better? I doubt it will help, but it might.
If the piece has a Minerva mark it will be around the rim, and on the inside will be a insect mark.
Maurice
Oh and don't forget the size, if you see that swirl pattern in the inside bottom, that is usually found on wine tasters.

Hi Maurice,

There is a mark on the inner rim. I have to get my son to photograph it this coming weekend.

The porringer's inscription says: Roger Simon McCormick, Paris August, 25, 1920.

He was the son of Chauncery McCormick, the American art collector ,industrialist and philanthropist, and was born in France in April of 1920. The family bequeathed some of its collection to Chicago Art Institute. Roger and his brother presented the institute a Van Gogh in 1964. He died in 1968. Another piece of art, a Picasso, owned by the family sold in 2000 for $55 m. There is now a sculpture section at the Chicago Art institute named after Roger McCormick. That is why I thought that the porringer was probably more than .800 fine. It is quite large. One might say it is twice the size of an average porringer. It was probably meant for soup for baby Roger.

I'd post some more pictures this weekend.

Thank you.

Fred

[Francais]

Hi
the mark on the inner rim is the countermark, on the outside in the same place you should find the Minerva mark, which presumably has a very tiny 1 in the upper right hand corner or a 2 in the lower right hand corner.
Maurice

[excalibur1661]

Hi
the mark on the inner rim is the countermark, on the outside in the same place you should find the Minerva mark, which presumably has a very tiny 1 in the upper right hand corner or a 2 in the lower right hand corner.
Maurice

Thanks. I'd post the photographs this weekend.

Fred