hallmark question

[zibbyg15]

Hi,

I have a pair of candlesticks that I am having trouble identifying the marks completely. On the pair of candlesticks, I originally believed them to be Continental and I had them tested to be 833 silver minimum. However, once reading the mark there is a 12 stamped on it which from my research could mean it is 750 silver and could fall under Continental since some of the mark is obliterated I could not make out the rest. If anyone has any ideas on the maker I would appreciate that since I am a bit stumped.

Below, please find the link to my photo gallery which shows the photo of the mark. thanks!

Elizabeth

http://s1312.photobucket.com/user/zibbyg15/library/

[dognose]

Hi Elizabeth,

Welcome to the Forum.

I've embedded your image as many people will not click on links.



An image of the candlesticks may provide someone with a clue regarding their origin.

Trev.

[AG2012]

It`s 12 ``lot``or .750 purity used in Germany (before 1884) and Austria-Hungary empire (before 1867). As for other marks impossible for me to tell.
If nitric acid was used for testing, it would have turned creamy colour for sterling. It turns black with coin quality silver and green (much copper in the alloy) with lower quality silver. It’s not that precise as gold acid testing, though. There’s another testing solution for silver which turns red; more silver, deeper red colour. Anyway, it’s 12 lot and one of countries mentioned above.
Regards

[zibbyg15]

thank you very much!

[Theoderich]

Hi Elizabeth,

Welcome to the Forum.

I've embedded your image as many people will not click on links.



An image of the candlesticks may provide someone with a clue regarding their origin.

Trev.

Looks like Romania - But I do not know which town
this mark Looks similar
http://www.sberatel.com/diskuse/sberate ... k-12-10612

[zibbyg15]

That swirl mark is strikingly similar to the one i have. The mark appears to be so obliterated i cannot make out what else is there beyond the 12. I feel like i could say most likely Romanian. I have searched extensively this afternoon for Romanian Hallmarks but am not finding much out. Does anyone have a suggestion of where i could go to look more into this?

[AG2012]

If silver was made there, it was in Transylvania (Erdély in Hungarian) or Siebenbürgen (German), once part of Austria- Hungary Empire. Several guilds are well documented but there is much unknown about Austria-Hungary ``provincial silver``. And yes, 12 loth was common there at the time. If Germany is excluded, Siebenbürgen is possible. On the other hand, the link given by Theoderich is a Czech forum (the spoon). I doubt flatware could have reached so far to the north. But silver moves in a mysterious way. There is a very knowledgeable member here - huszas76. He knows much about ex- Hungarian empire provinces, including Erdély, Siebenbürgen. I hope he will see this post.

[huszas76]

Hello all!
My oppinion: I agree with Theo, but I think, if this marks from Romania, it's rather from the old historical Romania, from one of the old roman principalities (Tara Romaneasca, Moldova), out from Transylvania. I think, there must be numerous silversmiths, some of them learned his job in Transylvania, and some of them in his own country.
I have some examples too from my collection just like Theo have:


Spoons from around 1850, as I believe from the principalities.
We don't know from the several known Transylvanian marks which is separate the fineness number (12) from the city mark except Brassó (Kronstadt, Brasov) in the 19. century.

This marks from Brassó around 1830 made by Thomas Kasten.
But I think the guild or the sovereign silvermakers, who learned his profession in Brassó, took over their rules.
But this is just my theory, sadly I don't have any sources to verify me. But if you search in the roumanian merchandise websites, you can find examples to the similar marks. And mostly out of the Transylvanian region.
But anyone know any source for the marks or guild or the makers of the old romanian principalities, please divide me too!
Best regards!
Krisztián

[huszas76]

And about the silver items mysterious way! :)
A few months ago I found a laddle in an Austral website, and someone try to sell from Sidney. And as I saw the marks, I determined, that it's made in the middle of the 19. century in the Hungarian city, Pécs by Jacob Posz.
;)
So, anything is possible! :)
Best regards!
Krisztián!

[AG2012]

Just crossed my mind; this sugar caster was made in Brassó (Kronstadt). Forgot if it has already been posted, I hope not. The maker is ``CR``, I suppose. The style and craftsmanship indicate early 19th century — no elements of neo- Baroque. Almost the same castor made in Vienna in 1835; the one made in Kronstadt is even superior in craftsmanship;hand piercing, riveted finial and heaver gauge. I do agree with Krisztián about Romania, I simply neglected the fact silver was made elsewhere out of Transylvania, too. And yes, apprentices from neighboring countries, having returned back home, used the standards learned in Austria-Hungary — therefore purity in loths.

[huszas76]

Hello AG2012!
CR is the mark of Carolus Resch. He became master in Brassó in 1841.
I don't know, how long he worked, but he died in 1905.
Best regards!
Krisztián

[AG2012]

Amazing Krisztián!You know everything.
Btw.I did not know the origin of the caster when I bought it - it was simply well made.Many of those guilds had excellent silversmiths and they managed to produce silver the way it was made in 18th century well into the middle of 19th century. Then mass production and industrial revolution devastated them.
Thank you.

[huszas76]

No, I just try to get all the informations about this area. And sometimes I'm lucky.
There is too much cities and silversmiths and items that we cannot identify. There is dozens of pictures what I cannot identify - some of them I posted here, and I will.
Moreover sometimes we believe that we know the most of the silversmiths who is working in a concrete city. Then we find an unidentified maker's mark from there. What a surprise! It happened with me in the last month :D
Best regards!