Any help to ID this moscow silversmith ?

[oldyin]

I bought this as being authentic ,but cannot find the makers mark making me think its possibly because he doesnt exist ,any help would be appreciated ,thanks

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj10 ... ox1of2.jpg
http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj10 ... ox1of2.jpg
http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj10 ... ox2of2.jpg

[oldyin]

close up shot of the makers mark

thanks
http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj10 ... 2of2-2.jpg

[Qrt.S]

Lousy close ups but, yes he exists in Moscow 1802-1816 but his name is unknown. The assayer MH 1810-1822 exist as well but you have bad luck because his name is not either known.
By the way, why can't you show the whole object. It is essential for the identifications that you know what kind of object your dealing with and what it looks like.

[Zolotnik]

Hi oldyn -

please be so kind and show the object - I have my doubts...

Regards
Zolotnik

[oldyin]

Hi Guys ,

Thanks so much for the input so far ,its a niello snuff box and was sold as being authentic
heres a few more clearer images of both the decoration and marks
http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj10 ... ox1of5.jpg
http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj10 ... ox2of5.jpg
http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj10 ... ox3of5.jpg
http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj10 ... ox4of5.jpg
and this mark ive not seen before ,only just seen it in a photograph
http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj10 ... ox5of5.jpg

[Qrt.S]

Hmmm... are there marks on both halves? If not, your bargain is more than dubious.

[oldyin]

Hi ,the snuff box is marked both under the lid and inside the bottom half with the same marks ,there is also a moscow mark on the hinge outside on one side

Regards

[Zolotnik]

Hi oldyin -

what I thought: it is the typical niello fake! Without going too deep into details (we do not discuss fakes on this forum!), here some hints:

Niellotechnique

Some surface (mostly silver because of the nice contraste) is more or less deep engraved in a certain motife or pattern. These wells are filled with a special "niello paste", later polished together with the silver to get a smooth surface (please google for exact explanations).
Your box is sloppy engraved (no right angles etc.), the sujet is more phantasy than Russian and the "niello" is a chemical fluid, used to oxydice certain parts. A closer look plus some knowledge reveal the truth.

Here some authentic niello boxes





your box (detail)



some fake boxes (see some matches?)



Regards
Zolotnik

[Dad]

Hi.

I think it's original old item. Assaymaster MK - Karpinskiy Mikhail, Moscow 1810-1823. This town mark (1818) is present in P.-L. book.
Maker is unknown 182-1816 ( P.L.). It is very characteristic style of the beginning of the 19th century.

Best Reg..

[Zolotnik]

Hi Dad -

I am always astonished about your lack of experience but the firmness of your statements!
If you really have an overview of the development and technology of Niello boxes in Russia, then you can see at a glance that this is a clumsy forgery. I have therefore shown photos of fakes and authentic objects to show the differences to the inexperienced observer.
Please just compare the images - style, sujet, technique, quality, markings etc. are just phantasy = fake!

Just one example: please have a look at the "background":

This "pattern" you will not find on real pieces - it is always a vvv or xxx or sunburst like pattern.
Here some different other objects to compare - maybe you can see a difference!


















Regards
Zolotnik

[AG2012]

Will not engage in the discussion; just regarding the background,the sky.
This is what we use for repousse small circles.

This is used to chisel ``sunburst`` lines.

Believe it or not, it is much easier to stamp thousands of circles than chisel a dozen of straight lines.:-)
And yes,silversmiths did conform to the taste of customers;I doubt very much one would have made completely different pattern at the time.Besides,there was serious teaching at workshops - both the skill and patterns passed on from one generation to the next.

[oldyin]

Hi ,

On returning to the place where i bought it ,he simply stated that it is authentic and not counterfeit as suggested ,and that it was a matter of opinion .As he sold it to me as a Russian Niello box ,any comments would be appreciated as i will be showing him this thread .I have also had the comments confirmed on this thread by other experts

Cheers