Hamburg 17. century with pelican mark

[Theoderich]

Objekt (baptistery)
http://silberpunze.si.funpic.de/Objekt/ ... schale.JPG
Mastersmark


Do anybody know which makersmark it is?
The townmark is Hamburg - but the mastersmark looks semilar to Rosenberg3 Nr. 3186 - but there is no name.
It is an Pelikan with a lock or a ring in his beak.

Who can help?

[Theoderich]

The townmark

[Georg Friederici]

Take care:

the mastermark from the goldsmith in Hamburg couldn't show a Pelican !!!

It must be another bird !!!

Best regards
Georg Friederici

[silverport]

Hello

In Christian mythology a pelican is already well known also in Hamburg — long before 1863 Carl Hagenbeck started his Zoological Park.

If shown possible maker’s mark would be enlarged to screen dimension — then its expression isn’t ornithological correct for a Biologist who claim details to be able count bird’s feathers. Also bird’s sturdiness’ isn’t in conformity to German mythological history in which storks bring babies to humans. But in this case there is one sibling — face detailed and polished — transported by bird’s beak.

It could be that this very expressive mark isn’t maker’s mark — but it could be too that this mark is a kind of signification of maker’s name? E.g. Adebar = Old German word for “Stork”; «Rosenberg ³» Vol. 2, p. 137, Nr. [2392] Adrian de Bro(e) — Master 1628, dead 1661.

They’ve need some humours in 1618 to 1648 (30 year war in Germany) to could survive mentally and physically. Maybe that’s the reason for some Symbolism?

My opinion is that «Rosenberg ³» Vol. 2, p. 268, Nr. 3186 (in silhouette of a hart an upright standing left side looking bird) is not identical or similar to here shown mark. But also not birds are shown in «Rosenberg ³» Vol. 2, p. 135, Nr. 2382/2383; p.137, Nr. 2393; p. 148, Nr. 2441.

Town mark isn’t similar but fits best «Rosenberg ³» Vol. 2, p. 130, nr. 2340 (middle XVII century).

Maker’s mark resists to be solved! Maybe further more too?

Source: «Rosenberg ³» Vol. 2, p. 129-151.

Kind regards silverport

[Georg Friederici]

Dear Silverport,
I have talked with Theo time ago about this mark. He is investigating for me a little bit. The bird couldn't be a Pelican !
Now the question is why this mark and his maker isn't registered in the main important books as Schliemann, Zeitzschel, Stierling, Scheffler, Rosenberg, and --more or less-- thats all.
Do to the fact, that all the birds shown in the Rosenberg didn't mention any maker, I mean just this, that not all gold- / silversmith' are really registered, and this bird is only one example.
Maybe "Bahner and Blakstone" can help in this matter. Do you know, if they are still reading this forum ?
The bird with a lock in the beak must have a meaning, however a part of the familyname but also something related to the place he is coming from. I mean this, because some cities shows in his coat of arms a raven with a ring (gold or silver) in his beak.
muito obrigado !
Kind regards and best wishes from Santiago de Chile
Georg

[Bahner]

Hello, how about Joachim Albert Finck (Fincke). Active in Hamburg ca. 1718 - 1757. The bird would be a “Fink” (finch ?). Both Scheffler and Schliemann document a mark VERY much like that. What is the letter in the city mark ? Best wishes, Bahner

[Georg Friederici]

Dear Bahner,
I'm sorry, I forgot to tell, that
Joachim Albert Fincke and also Sperling
couldn't be the rigth makers !
In the main books from
Dr. Bernt Zeitzschel, 1998
Erich Schliemann, 1985
Hubert Stierling und Wolfgang Scheffler, 1955
Marc Rosenberg, 1922 und 1923
Werner Schmidt, DGoV, 2009
we can't find this marks.
.
To the letter in the city mark: I can't see any letter. Please tell me your mail address and I can send you the JPG file. I really didn't know the procedure to include a picture in this forum.
My address is
and we can continue in german language.
Best regards from Santiago de Chile
Georg Friederici
.

[admin]

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[Bahner]

Hello, for the benefit of the forum I suggest we discuss this openly here. What makes You so sure this is not Finck ? The mark as documented by Scheffler is so very much like shown here. The city mark is badly punched, there could and should be a letter. Best wishes, Bahner

[Georg Friederici]

It's easy, Fincke stays about 1702 til 1708 in the "Lehre" and the Literature says, that he was born arround 1688
Do you mean, that a "Lehrling" with only 17 years could be the maker from a "barock Taufschale" ?? More or less impossible or all the dates from Fincke must be wrong, birthdate, "Lehre", "Ämter", a.s.o.
The "Taufschale" have's" a script with the date 15 May 1705 (it was a gift from Jacob Rotermundt in Hamburg to the marriage from Jacob Schöell in Preetz, Holstein).
In Hamburg Fincke starts with other "Ämter" arround 1717 or 1718 (I didn't remeber exactly the years), but ist not necessary to check this do to the other facts. That's the reason, Fincke worked later than 1705 !!!
Best regards
Georg Friederici

[Georg Friederici]

I request a little bit help:
who could send me a copy from the Schliemann (1985)
Vol. 2, page 292
Vol. 3, fig. 705 and 706
This must be marks from J. W. Heumann
This would be great.
georgfriederici@manquehue.net

[Theoderich]

Hello, for the benefit of the forum I suggest we discuss this openly here. What makes You so sure this is not Finck ? The mark as documented by Scheffler is so very much like shown here. The city mark is badly punched, there could and should be a letter. Best wishes, Bahner

Thank You Bahner. Have You an Image from this mark in the Scheffler Book?

This Images are from Friederici - and I try to help him - to find the maker of this "Taufschale".

[Georg Friederici]

I'm trying to find out some genealogical information about a gold- / silversmith in Hamburg, 17th century:
.........................................................
CHRISTOPHER MARCUS SPERLING
.........................................................
I mean, no Master Mark is known from him ???
Any additional informations about his works will be appreciated.
I haven't any news related to my first query: "Mastermark bird with a ring in the beak". Who could help in this matter ?
Best regards from Santiago de Chile
Georg Friederici
........................................

[Georg Friederici]

I'm still trying to find out the Goldsmith from the shown Master Mark from Hamburg about 1700.
I can't believe it, this is the most important Silver Forum and nobody could help ?
Remark: it is NOT Fincke and it is NOT Sperling !!!
Any help will be appreciated.
Best regards and wishes from Santiago de Chile
Georg Friederici

[Theoderich]

I'm still trying to find out the Goldsmith from the shown Master Mark from Hamburg about 1700.
I can't believe it, this is the most important Silver Forum and nobody could help ?
Remark: it is NOT Fincke and it is NOT Sperling !!!
Any help will be appreciated.
Best regards and wishes from Santiago de Chile
Georg Friederici

It is Fincke and the reference in Scheffler (Nr354, #990) is (Hüs.362)
http://silberpunze.piranho.de/Silber/WFELS/Finke.JPG